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Old August 31, 2013, 05:33 PM   #1
TMW89
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Shot mosin, now more questions

Well took my 1942 91/30 to the range today. At 100 yds and less, it shot decent groups, consistently right of center. Also for the heck of it, we shot at 250 yds, and only landed a couple on paper. Mostly just outside of the target.

I have already free floated the barrel except for the very end. I've seen videos of bedding the very end with sheet-cork. I was thinking of doing that. Any tips on that or otherwise accurizing the gun? Thanks
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Old August 31, 2013, 05:59 PM   #2
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You adjust the windage by drifting the front sight, in the direction of the error. In other words, if you are shooting right, you drift the front sight to the right.

Try the felt wrap I linked in the other thread.
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Old August 31, 2013, 06:13 PM   #3
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Put the bayonet on it. That is how they were originally zeroed.
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Old August 31, 2013, 06:37 PM   #4
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Drift the front sight in the direction of the group to move it in the opposite direction. Search the web for taller front sights if the group is way too high.

Soviet rifles have weird bore diameters. Sometimes the bore is larger than the bullet, you should try to slug your barrel. It is my recollection you need 0.310" diameter in Russian rifles, someone may know the exact number.

I bedded a number of Finnish rifles, this made a difference in group location and made the groups rounder. After action bedding they were less sensitive to bullet weight changes, but overall, group size did not change that much. I to get tiny groups in a Russian rifle you need a match barrel, the military barrel is a 3 to four in affair.
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Old August 31, 2013, 06:46 PM   #5
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It is my recollection you need 0.310" diameter in Russian rifles, someone may know the exact number.
The Prvi PPU ammo is .311 ..... and the handloads I make use the .311" Sierra 150gr Pro Hunter ....... seems to work.
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Old August 31, 2013, 09:42 PM   #6
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A perfect bore should be around .311" groove diameter. But... most are far from perfect. You'll find commie bores that range from .310" to .318" (8mm ). Most are in the .312" to .315" range.

But... if you're shooting jacketed bullets, it doesn't really matter. The grooves are quite deep in Mosins, and often even work well with .308" bullets. I wouldn't worry about bore diameter, unless you want to shoot lead bullets.


TMW -
What do you mean by "decent groups" ?
3 inches? 5 inches? Minute-of-barn?
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Old September 1, 2013, 07:18 AM   #7
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Ha they were minute of shed at 250...
My brother in law and I both shot it the same way. We had 3 sets of 2 that were an inch apart, and those 3 sets were within 6 inches of each other.( 100yds) All were right of center, and my sight was actually bumped over a fuzz to the right already, (not my doing).

I won't be reloading anytime real soon
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Old September 1, 2013, 03:07 PM   #8
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That isn't bad.
Try some different ammo, before you put more time, effort, and money into the rifle, without knowing if it'll make a difference.
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Old September 1, 2013, 06:50 PM   #9
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The MN is fundamentally no different than any other bolt gun.
IF you have one with a tight (.311) bore, reasonably crisp lands, no pitting and a good crown they can shoot. No point re-working the rifle if the foundation isn't sound.

If the receiver fit in the stock is sloppy, and allows movement consistency/accuracy is going to suffer. Bedding the receiver, and installing pillars (if the rifle has no significant historic value)- Timney trigger will yield the intended results as with any other rifle. I've found they shoot a bit better with the barrel shortened to 22", but opinions on this differ.

The milsurp ammo will never yield consistent groups to brag about. Handloads (174 SMK) will yield minute of angle, or slightly better results from an accurized rifle.

IMO, the MN has two real "markets"- those that like to plink with the (still) relatively cheap surplus ammo, and those that like to have some fun working up a cheap "project gun" into something that can shoot reasonably well.
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Old September 1, 2013, 08:36 PM   #10
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tobnpr reminded me of something you should check...
Check your muzzle, to see if the barrel has been counterbored. (Reamed to a larger internal diameter, due to erosion/corrosion.)

If it has been counterbored, your options may be limited. In other words - that barrel may be a dead-end, without chopping a few inches off.
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Old September 2, 2013, 02:40 AM   #11
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This link shows what the Soviets did to prep Mosins for competition. Illustration and translations:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...ting-quot-Book

More on wrapping and shimming:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...g-and-shimming

Lots of people have had good luck doing what the Soviets did.
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Old September 2, 2013, 07:16 AM   #12
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Everything on the gun seems tight, rifling looks decent. I checked the crown by sticking a bullet in the muzzle. Its stopped a little less than a cm (roughly) before the casing, which I thought was about how it should be, based on what i've read. I will try different ammo also.

Is that Brown Bear in the greenish box good stuff?
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Old September 2, 2013, 02:09 PM   #13
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The average Mosin was not a match rifle, and won't ever be. The WWII production was as fast as could be in order to keep the Soviet Union in the war.

You can tweak your ammo and improve it to an extent, but Minute of German Torso is the basic accuracy level. Bedding and sight adjustment will calm it down a lot.
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Old September 2, 2013, 02:47 PM   #14
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Yeah I knew it wasnt going to be a tack driver, i'd just like to be able to hit that german torso at 250 or so. We basically surrounded the edges of the target at 250 for the most part, except for a couple of hits.
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Old September 2, 2013, 02:52 PM   #15
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By the way, thanks to everyone for their help and input
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Old September 2, 2013, 03:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Yeah I knew it wasnt going to be a tack driver, i'd just like to be able to hit that german torso at 250 or so
Then do this (as translated in the Gunboards thread) :

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.A. Yur'yev, Sport Shooting

The book covers quite a bit of ground, both regarding competition pistols and rifles. Here's a very basic syopsis of the material that has to do with tuning Mosins (minus the trigger tuning stuff-I'm not that sure we should encourage too much of that for safety reasons):

He starts by going through things you need to check when choosing a rifle-sharp rifling, lack of pitting, muzzle and throat damage, and also straightness of the barrel which he advocated checking with barrel gauges.

He also emphasizes that lack of warping in the stock is important, and advocates finding a walnut stock if you are able to (because of its stability and resistance to warping).

He then goes into fitting the barrel to the barrel channel, saying that either free-floating or free-float with a barrel wrap work well, but that float/barrel wrap "has been more widely disseminated to the public and is better known".

He seems to think free float/wrap is the more reliable method, though, as it's more effective when the barrel starts to heat, and also if the forestock gets a minor warp at some time. He says there should be 1.5mm of clearance between the barrel and forestock/handguard, and says the endcap should be filed back on the edges if it contacts the barrel (shown in this illustration):

He says that if there's room in the channel for the barrel but a fit problem/warp makes it "unilaterally contact" the wood, that the problem can be addressed through the use of shims in the receiver/tang area as shown in this illustration (different of these areas for different fit issues):


He emphasizes that the areas shown in the following illustration should have complete, even contact between the action and the stock, and even advocates the use of red lead to check. He says the tang area is especially important:


And goes on to say that the shaded areas in this illustration should not be hit by the action, and should have a layer of wood removed if they do (and also that the receiver screws shouldn't slam into the walls of their holes):


Per the following illustration, he says the top of the magazine should have 1 to 3mm of clearance from the bottom of the action, and that the side edges of the magazine should have 1 to 1.5mm of clearance from the stock:
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Old September 2, 2013, 05:12 PM   #17
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I use a tapered front sight from smith-sights, also I bedded my mosin receiver and barrel. before the bed I used electrical tape around the barrel near the front barrel band. At first I floated the barrel and my groups went to 12" at 100 yards.after the tape it went back down to 1-2" groups. The furthest I've tagged a torso target is 1000 yards iron sights. Also get a limbsaver recoil pad, really helps unless of coarse you like the nice metal butt stock!
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Old September 2, 2013, 06:01 PM   #18
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Thanks! I never thought of electrical tape either... I've got so many options now.. I suppose I'll start with the easiest first.

Yeah, I took the limbsaver off of my 20guage and put it on there. (Glad I did)

Thanks Emcon5 for the literature, I'm gonna get working on some of that
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Old September 18, 2013, 07:55 PM   #19
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UPDATE

I took her to the range today after putting a piece of sheet-cork under the barrel, at the very end of the stock under that metal part.

The groups shrunk to where I have 2 or 3 holes touching... But it shoots in the same 2 o'clock position. Also instead of 6-8 inches from center, I'm about 3 3/4" to 4" from center.

so I suppose I'll start working on bedding the action?
Grizzdude, how did you bed the action on yours?

Any help is appreciated
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Old September 19, 2013, 02:33 PM   #20
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Quote:
But it shoots in the same 2 o'clock position. Also instead of 6-8 inches from center, I'm about 3 3/4" to 4" from center.

so I suppose I'll start working on bedding the action?
No, it means you need to drift the front sight so it is centered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me, back on Aug 31
You adjust the windage by drifting the front sight, in the direction of the error. In other words, if you are shooting right, you drift the front sight to the right.
If you are happy with the groups, leave the bedding alone.
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Old September 19, 2013, 05:41 PM   #21
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The sight was previously offset to the right. I centered it before that last trip to the range.
I guess you're right about leaving the bedding thing alone.
Could it just be that the crown and end of bore isn't all that great? And no matter what I do it won't get those bullets to move left?
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Old September 19, 2013, 05:48 PM   #22
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I'm not really sure how to check if it has been counter bored. Any tips on that?
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Old September 19, 2013, 05:50 PM   #23
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Nope.
Accuracy of the rifle/ammunition is determined by consistency (same point of impact with identical point of aim).

When doing load development, it doesn't matter where the bullets hit relative to point of aim. It's their point of impact relative to each other that matters.

Your issue now is only that of sight adjustment.

If you've got holes touching- DON'T mess with anything other than the sights!!
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Old September 19, 2013, 06:10 PM   #24
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The rifle on the left is counterbored:

http://62x54r.net/MosinID/counterbore.JPG

As to why it shoots a bit to the right, who knows. If the holes are touching, then leave it alone, just fix the sights.

What range did you test?
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Old September 19, 2013, 06:55 PM   #25
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What I reported was at 50 yds. I also shot a few at 100, but couldn't hit an 12" x 18" target. I assume I was missing to the right, hard to tell from that far.
As for the counter bore, it maybe very well be counter bored. I don't have the rifle in front of me as I'm out of town for work. My gun doesn't look as bad as the one one the left, but not as good as the one on the right.
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