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Old August 22, 2013, 06:51 AM   #1
Elerius
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Small primers in 44 Mag brass

I have been trying to find out if anyone makes brass for 44 mag that will take small pistol primers. I have yet to load anything for revolver and ive never fired 44 before but the gun is on my list. I know they're supposed to take large primers, but I switched over to 45 acp with small primers and that would make everything I load useable without the hassle of switching between primer sizes. Except for the 44.

I know with case volume of the cartridge a small primer might not be powerful enough, but I would imagine simply using magnum small primers might even out the problem if thst was the case. Does this line of thought hold any water? if so can someone point me to a manufacturer for this brass? I haven't been able to find anything specific to this topic unfortunately.
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Old August 22, 2013, 07:06 AM   #2
madmo44mag
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I have never seen 44 mag with a small primer.
For a case of that size and powder volume a large primer would be required.
Years ago the 44 mag was listed with a large magnum primer.
Now days magnum primers are rarely needed.
Better coatings on the powder have reduced the need for magnum primers in most pistol cartridges.
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Old August 22, 2013, 07:20 AM   #3
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If you want small primer pockets in your 44 brass, contact a manufacture like Starline Brass and they will make it for you for a price or provide a functional reason why it is not prudent/practical. They know their business.

I understand your desire for 'the same' for supply reasons. I conform to the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' view. But to each their own.

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Old August 22, 2013, 07:38 AM   #4
Elerius
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If someone with 44 Mag in their name hasn't seen this kind of brass, its probably safe to assume that if it is out there somewhere it won't be readily available for me anyways.

I wouldn't go through the trouble of custom ordering small pockets in it, I don't think. I'd just have to make 44 in larger batches then normal. But for curiosity's sake, is Starline known to actually make custom brass for people, or is that a "maybe they will if you ask" sort of thing? It would certainly be unique which makes me more interested then I probably should be
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Old August 22, 2013, 02:42 PM   #5
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got gold?

Starline will charge you a first-time tooling fee, and demand a certaion amount be purchased.
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Old August 22, 2013, 02:45 PM   #6
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I have never seen, nor heard of, small primer .44 Mag (or even .44 Special) brass.

If you want a custom batch made up, your best bet will not be Starline (the wait list is years long). Quality Cartridge would be my choice. Minimum quantities are significantly lower, delivery is faster, and the quality is just as good.
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Old August 22, 2013, 07:45 PM   #7
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I hope I never see small primer 44 Mag brass.
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Old August 22, 2013, 09:19 PM   #8
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Have a low power load I do that uses the lpp but my higher loads for both my Desert Eagle and revolver use magnum lpps.
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Old August 22, 2013, 09:31 PM   #9
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You could always skip the .44 and go to a .454 Casull or a .460 Win, I think both use Small Rifle Primers instead of LPP's. You'd have to change out the primer but not the feed mechanism..
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Old August 23, 2013, 08:53 AM   #10
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Elerius, please don't take this the wrong way, it is not meant to be critical. Since you seem to be unaware to what is available for reloading components for one of the most common handgun calibers out there, I assuming not only have you not ever shot a .44, but are also fairly new to the reloading.

Since you can't use the same bullets in your new .44 as you use now in your .45, is that any different than having to have a different primer? Odds are, if you want to make the most of that new .44 you'll have to have one more powder on hand also. Too bad they can't use the same case, shell holder and die sets too. While it sure would be nice to only have to have one of everything when it comes to reloading multiple calibers, the nature of the beast makes it inevitable that it ain't gonna happen. For many folks, this is the reason they invest in multiple firearms in the same caliber. For others, the variety of calibers not only adds to the pleasure at the range, but at the bench also. If having to stock large pistol primers is that big of nuisance, and since you have never shot a revolver before, I suggest maybe considering a .357. They use small pistol primers and to many folks new to revolvers, give all the bang they need.

Again, the desire to keep inventory to a minimum, especially at times like this when components are difficult to get anyways, is common. You see folks all the time asking which powder for X caliber works for everything. Truth is, nothing works best for all. In reloading, there are way too many variables for that to happen. I know that once you get that new revolver, you'll find that part of the intrigue is how much different components affects performance.
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Old August 23, 2013, 11:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
I hope I never see small primer 44 Mag brass
Same here . I like 'standards'. Unfortunately they 'broke' the standard with .45 ACP. Now we have to 'check' every time we pick up field brass.... Small ones I toss, the standard Large ones I keep.

Just keep a stock of both. I have .357s/.38s with the small. The rest use the large.
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Old August 23, 2013, 11:38 AM   #12
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I agree with most of the above posts; been reloading the .44 Magnum for over 25 years and haven't seen any with small primer pockets.

I've been thinking of a solution, but nuttin' comes up and the Starline purchase would certainly too costly for any normal reason. I shoot both large primed pistol and large primed pistol and when I was buying primers (pre obummer re-up) I had a habit of always buying two bricks at a time, one large and one small primers. Now I have way more small pistol primers than large 'cause I shoot my .44 Mags. and 45 ACPs more than my 9mm or .38s.

Not a solution, but keep lookin' for large pistol primer on line, daily if you have to. Primers have changed over the years, some went small to large and some went large to small, but interchangeability? I know of no acceptable remedy...
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Old August 23, 2013, 12:46 PM   #13
BigJimP
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I've never seen a .44 Mag case with a small pistol primer...and I doubt you'll find one - in a production casing.

I'm not a fan of .45 acp cases with small primers either.../ the reason they exist at all is because Winchester and others wanted to create a non-toxic primer ( lead free ) and they went to a small pistol lead free primer on their WinClean cartridges. Personally, when I run accross some small pistol primer .45 acp cases, I just dump them in the garbage. I also don't see the trend increasing / and a lot of the new ammo I see on the ranges I shoot at have .45 acp ammo with the traditional large pistol primers.
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Old August 25, 2013, 08:09 AM   #14
Elerius
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Thanks everyone for your input. I will stick with keeping my large primers when I load for 44 and just have to deal.

buck460XVR, I am not new to reloading. I have never shot 44 May as stated in my first post, but I have owned and shot .357 and other revolvers. All I have ever reloaded for is 9mm, 40 and 45acp. I realize it will irk many reloaders to say this, but I only reload for one reason: cost. From the supplies I get (or used to get before nothing was available) I can make 9mm at half the cost, and 45 at less than half the cost when compared to Winchester 100 count white box from Walmart. My reloading concerns are for the most practicality necessary to reproduce a midrange, factory load that functions fine and accurately with average speeds without having to make it more complicated. So that I can shoot when I feel like it, as much as I want.

I agree that 45acp was traditional with a large primer; mine function basically identically with a small primer, and Titegroup is the powder I use that produces adequate results and function with each different caliber. Same powder, same primer, same process for each caliber. It does everything I want it to do.

Hearing everyone's opinions here though it sounds like this cannot be the case for 44 Mag. Not only can I not use a small primer because they simply don't exist (and maybe rightly so) but Titegroup, while possible, won't be acceptable enough from the reading I've done. As you can imagine, this puts quite a dent on my current streamlining for the sake of one caliber, but if I want 44 its something that will have to be done
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Old August 25, 2013, 07:28 PM   #15
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elerius:

Thanks everyone for your input. I will stick with keeping my large primers when I load for 44 and just have to deal.

buck460XVR, I am not new to reloading. I have never shot 44 May as stated in my first post, but I have owned and shot .357 and other revolvers. All I have ever reloaded for is 9mm, 40 and 45acp. I realize it will irk many reloaders to say this, but I only reload for one reason: cost. From the supplies I get (or used to get before nothing was available) I can make 9mm at half the cost, and 45 at less than half the cost when compared to Winchester 100 count white box from Walmart. My reloading concerns are for the most practicality necessary to reproduce a midrange, factory load that functions fine and accurately with average speeds without having to make it more complicated. So that I can shoot when I feel like it, as much as I want.
Sorry if my assumption on your reloading experience was incorrect Elerius. Since it is common knowledge that calibers having cases available, that can use large and small primers is the extreme exception and not the norm, your question, as legitimate as it was, just struck me as coming from someone new to the reloading experience, not just to reloading .44 mag.

No apologies needed for the reasons you reload. It may also be a incorrect assumption, but I truly believe the majority of us that reload, justify our hobby because of the cost savings. While there are a few that are truly into it for the extreme accuracy, or to go where no other man has ever gone, most of us reload because we just like to shoot twice as much for the same amount of monies. Creating a pleasant shooting, accurate load while doing that, is just frosting on the cake. Creating sub-standard loads just to save money tho, is counter-productive. Throwing good bullets downrange using a sub-par powder just cause it's cheap is not really saving anything. That is why most of us realize we need to stock more than one powder on the shelf. A round that is substantially cheaper than factory, but may cost us a penny more to produce than another handload, if it performs substantially better..... is the true value of our sport. I have never found the price of Large Pistol Primers to be any different than the cost of Small Pistol primers, so from that standpoint, having to have both doesn't cost anymore, just means you have another item on the shelf. During this last shortage, I actually appreciated having .45ACP cases that used the different primers, because there were times when I could get small primers and no large primers and vice-versa. Being able to still shoot, regardless of what was available, was a plus.
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Old August 25, 2013, 09:34 PM   #16
Misssissippi Dave
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I have come up with a solution to seems to suit my needs. I just keep 3 sleeves of each primer size I normally use as a minimum level to keep on hand. Yes, it seems to be a lot of primers. It is also enough to keep a person with the one part each round always needs. You can switch powders if one is not available. You can switch from lead to plated or jacketed bullets and varying weights of bullets. Sometimes you can use magnum primer in place of standard primer. You always need primers none the less. The choices are not many when it comes to primers. Stocking up on them seems to be the best solution.
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Old August 26, 2013, 02:16 PM   #17
BigJimP
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Hodgdon TiteGroup is a very good powder for .44 mag.....in fact, in part, it was developed for large volume cases - where regardless of the powder location in the case - you still get good ignition and consistent ballistics.

I recommend TiteGroup for .44 mag.....its a very good powder.
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Old August 26, 2013, 02:49 PM   #18
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Quote:
Hodgdon TiteGroup is a very good powder for .44 mag.
+1 . Just not for high end loads. When I tested it, I like 8.0g of Titegroup under 240g SWC for 1080fps. ES was only 35. Consistent. My go to load is still 10g of Unique under 240g SWC for 1136fps.
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Old August 26, 2013, 03:04 PM   #19
BigJimP
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I use jacketed bullets in .44 mag.....and with 240gr JHP's...

TiteGroup is Min 9.0 gr - Max 10.0 ...with velocities in tables of 1219 fps - 1292 fps.....( so no, they aren't real hot....but they're hot enough for paper punching...or just having some fun ...)..../ and the results are really consistent based on what I've seen, especially out of an 8 3/8" S&W model 29 or 629....

I have used Hodgdon Lil Gun....but you're up at 22.5 - 24.5grains...and velocites are 1465 fps - 1582 fps....( but it makes my knuckles hurt just thinking about it )....but if you want to push them fast, Lil-Gun will get it done !!

I have a short barreled S&W model 629 - in a 3" that's ported ...the "Trail Boss" ...but its not fun to shoot when you're pushing 240 gr JHP's over the mid 1200 fps velocities.../so to me, a powder that will give you velocities in the mid 1200's ...around 1250 fps or so, is plenty fast enough . But I have buddies that like Unique in .44 mag as well....

Last edited by BigJimP; August 26, 2013 at 03:15 PM.
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Old August 26, 2013, 06:50 PM   #20
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JimP, just for the record I have pushed 240g SWC up to 1333fps with no leading. I prefer though for 'normal' shooting to stay sub 1100fps though. Paper doesn't know the difference ... or a gopher ... or .... steel plates or ....
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Old August 26, 2013, 07:34 PM   #21
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rclark, I have to agree with you. I have pushed Keith style bullets of hard alloy (20-22 BHN) up to 1450 with only faint lead streaking in the bore, but I have also found that I really don't need that much velocity.

A decently hard cast SWC (12+ BHN) in the .44 Mag at anything over 1000 fps will go clean through a deer at 50 yards and when the hole starts out at 44 caliber, it doesn't need to expand!
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Old August 26, 2013, 09:07 PM   #22
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I hope I never see the small lead free primers in the large pistol calibers but I have to admit, they fire a low pressure 45acp just as good as the large primers do.

I don't know how they would work on the slower burning magnum powders, that would probably be a deal breaker.
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Old August 27, 2013, 06:31 AM   #23
JT-AR-MG42
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Well, There IS a way...

It might take some searching to find more inserts, but FA did come up with this solution when it was deduced that the LPP was the weak link in their Casull revolver when using full power loadings.



This kit allowed the owner of the LPP cases to convert them for the SRP.

Remember that, at the time, Casull SRP cases were not readily available and the owners of the LPP cases had put serious money into the proprietary brass.
As you can read, it was not a simple solution, but the steel inserts gave added strength to the primer pockets to keep them from blowing as easily.

I just use my LPP cases with lighter loadings.



Here is a pic of a before and after insert along with a SRP case with the strengthened head (and reduced powder capacity).



Maybe not practical for .44, but it could be done.

JT
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Old August 28, 2013, 06:14 PM   #24
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Wouldn't it be much simpler to go with large primers for your 45? Most 45s these days use large primers.
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Old August 31, 2013, 09:13 AM   #25
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Custom brass. Odd little inserts. Seems like a lot of potential trouble to go through simply to avoid buying the correct primer for ammo intended for use in a gun you haven't bought yet.
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