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Old August 18, 2013, 11:34 PM   #26
LockedBreech
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When I carry, my concern isn't primarily the shape of the bullet, or penetration, or energy dump, or barrier defeating characteristics.

It's quality.

I don't want to worry about filthy, bright powders. I don't want to worry about second-rate primers. I've shot a large variety of FMJ, like everyone else, and I have not been impressed enough with the quality to trust it. I could go for Buffalo Bore or Black Hills, but they are harder to find and more expensive.

To that end, I carry a quality JHP - almost always Gold Dot or HST, occasionally Golden Saber - even in .380 where it under-penetrates a bit.

I just want my gun to go bang. I feel like modern JHPs give me better odds of that.
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Old August 18, 2013, 11:36 PM   #27
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Has anyone ever tested the Speer gold dot bonded FMJ bullet against barriers? Which begs the Question: What is the main purpose of this bullet? In other words, what does the GD bonded fmj do that the GD bonded HP can't? Does anyone else manufacture a bonded FMJ pistol calibre bullet? The Speer GD is the only one I've seen. Thanks
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Old August 18, 2013, 11:45 PM   #28
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However thru my own extensive testing thru various media the 230gr 45ACP fmj rn bullet is way out-penetrated by the 123gr fmj rn 9x19mm para...
Interesting. What sort of media are you using?

In standard gel, the penetration figures for 9mm NATO and 230gr FMJ .45ACP are more similar than different. The 230gr FMJ goes about 26" and the 124gr FMJ about 27.6".

From the www.firearmstactical.com website:



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Old August 19, 2013, 04:42 AM   #29
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Gaerek you said; Please tell me why it doesn't matter whether I load JHP or FMJ in my defensive handgun when practically every instructor, at least in the US, says that a quality JHP round is the BEST round for SD, and that FMJ rounds shouldn't be used unless there's no other option for some reason.

Speaking a fact on the Internet without citing a source does absolutely no good. You stating that the argument is "way overdone" does nothing to help. Backing up that claim with EVIDENCE (you are in LE, right? you know what evidence is, right?) will allow information to be passed along. Trust me, if I'm loading the wrong round in my gun, I'd really like to know it, and know why.

This is my opinion simple as that.


If you read thru the posts in this thread your question will be answered.
You said it above Instructors etc gave you the key word BEST.
And plenty of other posters in this thread alone have answered your question.
And if I had time to research out facts for you I might as well start teaching again. And if you again look thru just this thread you may be able to see you should worry more about missing then a thru and thru.
I don't give out my credentials out over the internet and I don't need to prove anything. The same could be said about a good JHP rd what makes thats better? Would the target know if it's FMJ or JHP? Would it be better to miss your target with a FMJ or a JHP? In some places around the country it's against the law to use JHP. If you are satisfied with your knowledge in this subject than I am. I just stated what I have learned over a long periiod of time and in being trained myself by some very prominent authorities on the subject. Have a good and keep on enjoying your right to shoot.
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Old August 19, 2013, 04:54 AM   #30
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The places where it is illegal to carry jhp ammunition have those laws because they are run by politicians that know nothing about firearms or ammunition.

The test that JohnKSa posted shows the .45 ball ammo penetrating 26". That would clearly over penetrate a human. Don't know of many people whose chest is 26" thick front to back.

Quote:
The same could be said about a good JHP rd what makes thats better? Would the target know if it's FMJ or JHP?
What makes a jhp superior to a fmj as a defensive round is the energy transfer of the jhp. That has been proven beyond a doubt, and to argue that is pointless.
Energy transfer=greater stopping power. Your target may not know the difference between being hit with a fmj or jhp, but you might when they are still fighting you because the fmj didn't stop them as quickly as a jhp would have.
Carrying fmj as a defensive round is ridiculous in this day and age with all of the superior jhp loadings available. IMO, it is irresponsible to advocate doing so. Do your research.
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Old August 19, 2013, 05:59 AM   #31
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The law makers have never been known to be of much commonsense when it comes to anything that has to do with guns let alone ammo.

I don't know how many on this forum have ever been in real life defense shooting but the stress level you would experience is like nothing else, and you will miss! so I stand by what I said FMJ would do just fine JHP will MAYBE do better but it has also been proven that the 230 gr 45 acp will drop in power considerable buy the time it leaves the back side of your target and thats if it does. Like I said common sense says a miss should be your biggest concern.


A 22 is as good as any if the shot placement is correct! A handgun is a poor choice for selfdefense in the first place. Stopping power is pretty much a myth.
My research has been thru 30+ yr of experience, I now just relax and enjoy shooting.

BTW I did not post my opinion to start a debate, I am just stating an opinion based on my past 30+ yrs of experiences. I respect different opinions and don't expect every one to have the same. If every one thought the same it would be a much more boring world then it is.

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Old August 19, 2013, 06:34 AM   #32
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If I have to get shot I'd rather get hit with the "extra punch" of an FMJ round than the large wound channel delivered by a wimpy hollow point.
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Old August 19, 2013, 01:43 PM   #33
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"Interesting. What sort of media are you using?" [JohnKSa]


Used 5 wet 2"x6" spruce boards, laminated together into a block. Found a 123 gr fmj 9mm bullet penetrated thru completely and a 230gr fmj 45ACP bullet penetrated thru to only 3.5 boards.

I can't explain why in Dr. Fackler's test results there is little difference in penetration.

If I had gel I would likely mix in some wet oak to simulate bone matter.



I will try to replicate the test again.
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Old August 19, 2013, 10:59 PM   #34
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No need to replicate the tests. I assumed you were using a tissue replicant for your testing and that's why the results surprised me.

I haven't looked at penetration figures for wood, but it doesn't surprise me to find that they are not consistent with the penetration figures from gel. There's a reason that defensive ammunition is tested in gel and not wood to determine how much it is likely to penetrate in tissue.
Quote:
If I had gel I would likely mix in some wet oak to simulate bone matter.
If you did that, you would find that your penetration figures were not representative of penetration figures in gel or in human tissue. The gel is technology's current best way replicate the average density of human tissue and that average includes the idea that some human tissue is bone.

The idea is to provide figures that represent the average penetration in an attacker with the understanding that in the real world, some bullets will penetrate more than average and some less depending on the specific types of tissue the bullet encounters. But the average real-world penetration figures will be accurately represented by the gel penetration figures because that is precisely what it was developed to do.
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Old August 20, 2013, 08:56 AM   #35
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Recall coming across some WW1 era handgun literature where 1" boards were used to judge penetration. Seriously.

And there was also an interesting test conducted in August 1948 by the Canadian military, where handgun bullets were tested against a steel M1 helmet.

The helmet was penetrated by the 45ACP 230 gr ball out to a distance of only 30 yards whereas the 9mm para 124 gr ball penetrated to a distance of 130 yards.

One would think Dr. Fackler's gel results would have shown greater variation. Whereas helmets and wood are familiar, I know little about ballistic gel. Thank you for your comments re gel testing.

Perhaps the Russians had the best solution, in the 1890s a handgun bullet was expected to knock down a horse at 25 paces.
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Old August 20, 2013, 10:58 AM   #36
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Quote:
Recall coming across some WW1 era handgun literature where 1" boards were used to judge penetration. Seriously.

And there was also an interesting test conducted in August 1948 by the Canadian military, where handgun bullets were tested against a steel M1 helmet.

The helmet was penetrated by the 45ACP 230 gr ball out to a distance of only 30 yards whereas the 9mm para 124 gr ball penetrated to a distance of 130 yards.
Sometimes the military has to shoot through objects in the battle-field environment that is not necessarily human bodies. I s'pose it helps to know just how much "stuff" your pistol bullets will go through.
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Old August 20, 2013, 11:09 AM   #37
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I personally carry black talons with my 9mm and magtech golds in my 45 but if I were to choose FMJs I would go with CCI blazer brass or federal champions in 230 grain.
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Old August 20, 2013, 10:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Recall coming across some WW1 era handgun literature where 1" boards were used to judge penetration. Seriously.
I believe it. People have used various test media over the years until gel was developed. To be clear, I'm not claiming that gel is a perfect simulant, but it does a good enough job that there doesn't seem to be any major push to find something better at the moment.

481 makes a good point as well. Military and LE are often concerned with intermediate barriers and therefore penetration through materials such as wood will be of interest to them even if those figures don't relate well to penetration in human tissue.
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Old August 20, 2013, 11:10 PM   #39
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Only time FMJ would better than JHPs would be in cold weather where penetrating thick clothing is a consideration.
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Old August 20, 2013, 11:28 PM   #40
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I've found that a 32oz bottle of liquid set in front of a firewood round(preferably tamarack) gives a good worst case scenario representation of a bullets expansion and penetration. it seems to simulate a bullet that's hit a rib or shoulder quite nicely.

not quite as accurate at simulating straight passthrough of flesh and organs without hitting bone but... I can't afford ballistics gel so that's what I use.
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Old August 21, 2013, 05:55 AM   #41
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Although I prefer jhp over fmj for SD scenarios, I wouldn't feel under armed if limited to fmj for a .45. I am far more concerned about missed shots versus over penetration.
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Old August 21, 2013, 08:39 PM   #42
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Well I think the we strayed from the point a bit, but some posts were very informative. I will find some JHPs, shoot them and carry them only. I saw some Remington Golden Saber +P rounds at dunhams...40$ a box of $25. I wasn't sure if I should get the +P rounds or not so I decided against it.
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Old August 22, 2013, 04:52 PM   #43
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Ball over penetration and hits a bystander More rounds miss than over penetrate But no one worries about those be it ball or HP. A miss is more dangerous At least a hit slowed the bullet up some what.
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Old August 22, 2013, 07:03 PM   #44
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It depends on the bullet configuration. The class round-nose FMJ is actually a very poor self defense round; while it penetrates well, it "slips" through human tissue without really doing much damage, unless you hit something vital dead center, like a spine or brain.

Of course, if you're in a populated area where overpenetration is a consideration, it's a different ball game.

Anyway, what you really need for that "punch" is a FMJ with a flat point, like this one at Buffalo Bore:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...ct_detail&p=69

The flat point tends to "crush" tissue as it plows through it, and does great damage, while still penetrating both the bad guy and the car door he's hiding behind.

On our ranch out here, I carry the BB 9mm +P+ Penetrator ammo which is designed the same way. You can kill just about anything with that bullet.
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