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Old August 14, 2013, 07:41 PM   #51
Quentin2
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@ Quentin2 Yep if I could buy for the same price the same gun from colt or DD I would . The Del-Ton does go for $900 here the colt $1150 and my LGS does not have DD . My LGS is a franchise and they order a lot of Del_ton's . That may be why they can sell them for that price .
Actually I put together a Daniel Defense build three years ago for about $1000. It's very much like the BCM Mod 0 but is a lightweight midlength and has a hammer forged barrel. The lower started as a stripped S&W M&P-15 and was finished with DD, BCM and Magpul (MOE grip and CTR stock). The upper is all DD including the BCG. (Well the handguards are Magpul MOE, a rarity on a DD midlength.)

I call it my Dan Wesson AR!
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Old August 14, 2013, 08:24 PM   #52
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yep Thats where and when you start saving money . Your not going to save any money building a budget rifle . The budget rifles are all over the place for right around the same price as a build if you include the tools needed .

You can how ever build a custom rifle with Magpul stock , free float rail . nice trigger etc for less then buying the same rifle complete .

Rifle on the left is a custom build for $1150 , The one on the right Del-ton moe $820 OTD
.
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Old August 17, 2013, 03:13 PM   #53
fragtagninja
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Very nice rifles sir.

I saw something the other day, and I cannot seem to find the info I want online about it. It was an AR15 with a scope mounted on the top rail and a holographic scope appeared to be mounted on one of the side rails though it appeared to be at an upward angle (possibly 45 degrees) so as to make it easier to see I assume.

I find this super cool, and really want to know how you would go about this. I was also hoping someone here has done this and could fill me in on how it works. Does it need to be at an angle or could you just slam an eo tech or aimpoint on the side rail? How much would this sort of thing effect sighting and accuracy? Just so ridiculous I can't resist it. Gonna have to budget it in.

Okay not the one I was talking about, but I found this. Way more stuff than I am interested in, but it shows a ton of options. What would be the best method here? I had no idea this stuff existed.

http://gungearusablog.com/page/3/

Thanks for any help in advance guys.

Last edited by fragtagninja; August 17, 2013 at 03:20 PM.
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Old August 17, 2013, 06:01 PM   #54
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http://www.opticsplanet.com/gg-g-45-...ail-mount.html
http://www.amazon.com/Degree-Offset-.../dp/B003VC7214
http://www.knightarmco.com/shop/inde...products_id=96
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Old August 17, 2013, 11:12 PM   #55
Theohazard
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Originally Posted by fragtagninja
I find this super cool, and really want to know how you would go about this. I was also hoping someone here has done this and could fill me in on how it works. Does it need to be at an angle or could you just slam an eo tech or aimpoint on the side rail? How much would this sort of thing effect sighting and accuracy? Just so ridiculous I can't resist it. Gonna have to budget it in.
The idea of 45-degree offset iron sights or red-dots is to have a set of backup sights when using a magnifying optic. They allow you to quickly and seamlessly engage close-range targets while still using a magnifying optic as a primary sighting system.

Normal flip-up sights don't work through magnifying optics, and mounting a small red-dot on top of the optic really sucks - it forces you to raise your head up and find the red dot because you just lost your cheek weld. Instead, you tilt the top of the rifle towards you 45 degrees, keeping the same cheek weld and therefore finding the offset sights faster and keeping more steady while you shoot.

On most set-ups, tilting the rifle 45 degrees towards you feels natural and maintains proper cheek weld to the stock. On the other hand, mounting a red dot on the side rail would force you to tilt the rifle much farther than is practical.
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Old August 18, 2013, 07:24 AM   #56
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Thanks guys. So you would not be able to use the other optics without rotating the rifle?
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Old August 18, 2013, 09:09 AM   #57
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That's correct; in order to use the backup sights or red dot you have to rotate the rifle. And rotating the rifle 45 degrees is far better than lifting your head up to find a sight that's on top of your optic. Basically, a 45 degree offset sight is the fastest and most efficient way to have both a close-range and a magnified sight at the same time.
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Old August 18, 2013, 11:00 PM   #58
fragtagninja
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What if the red dot was mounted on the other side. Meaning opposite of the ejection port. Would this still require rotating the rifle? Seems like it would be more in plain view this way.
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Old August 19, 2013, 12:08 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragtagninja
What if the red dot was mounted on the other side. Meaning opposite of the ejection port. Would this still require rotating the rifle? Seems like it would be more in plain view this way.
It doesn't matter if its in plain view or not, if it's off to the side it's completely useless until you either move the rifle or move your head.

With a red dot sight your eye still needs to be behind it in order to see the dot. If you put the red dot sight sight anywhere but in the normal position on top of the rifle, you're going to have to move the rifle so your eye is behind the sight.

If you're a righty and you mount the sight on the left side of the rifle, it's going to be very awkward to tilt the rifle away from you to look through the sight. You want it mounted at a 45-degree angle on the right side if the rifle.
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Old August 19, 2013, 01:04 AM   #60
fragtagninja
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I thought so. Thanks for the info. With this configuration does the red dot need to be smaller in order to fit? Or would something like aimpoint pro, or eo tech fit.
Also how practical of a set up is it as far as a multi-purpose rifle goes. Also how hard is it to get used to tilting the rifle like that? Does it take a lot of time to adapt to? Or is it just as simple as tilt and shoot?
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Old August 19, 2013, 01:48 AM   #61
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For a 45-degree offset sight you're going to want a smaller red dot like a Trijicon RMR, Vortex Razor, Leupold Delta Point, Burris Fastfire, etc. An Aimpoint or EoTech would work, but they'd be bulky, heavy, and awkward. Keep in mind that an offset sight is a back-up sight, so you're probably already running a scope as a primary and therefore you don't want your offset sight to be too big or heavy.

That brings me to my preference of 45-degree offset sights. Being that the whole idea of 45-degree offset sights is that they're used for back-up, I like iron sights for that role instead of something that's electronic and uses a battery. I like fixed 45-degree offset iron sights like the ones made by Dueck Defense:

http://www.dueckdefense.com/gun-sight-specs.asp

45-degree flip-up iron sights like those made by Knights Armament are OK, but being flip-up means they're not quite as strong as good fixed ones and they take a moment to flip up when you need them.

45-degree offset sights are very practical if you're running a magnified scope as a primary optic. They allow you to make quick close-up shots that would be very difficult with the scope. Tilting the rifle is very easy and was totally natural for me the first time I tried it. And if the offset sights are the right height (like the Dueck Defense ones), they'll be the same height as your primary optic (if you mounted your primary optic at the right height) and that means you have the same check weld, making it much easier to transition to the offset sights.
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Old August 19, 2013, 02:04 AM   #62
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Here are some videos demonstrating the Dueck Defense sights:

http://www.dueckdefense.com/video.asp

In the first video, the guy is using the offset iron sights as a backup in case his primary red dot goes down. In the other videos they're mostly used as a close-range backup for the magnified scope on competition rifles. You can see how fast and easy it is to transition to this type of sight.
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Old August 19, 2013, 04:32 PM   #63
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Thanks man. That sounds like a pretty sweet setup you are running.

I could use some advice on rails as well. I really like the Troy alpha rails, but I saw something else that has peaked my interest.

http://www.store-diamondhead-usa.com...tem_p/2171.htm

It sounds like this would be much easier to install. My concern is the stability vs the Troy Alpha rail which from what my research has yielded it is a very high quality product and very solid.

How long does a rail need to be in order to fit a mid length gas system?
And can I put a 15" rail on a 16" barrel without causing problems?

Two more from Diamondhead I like that sound like they have more stable attachment foundations are these.

http://www.store-diamondhead-usa.com...tem_p/2141.htm


http://www.store-diamondhead-usa.com...tem_p/2241.htm

I don't know much about the mounting of these things. It seems like the first diamondhead would mount just like a hand-guard, but is this enough of a positive to choose it over the others?

Any thoughts on functionality, or fit and finish of one vs the other?

Last edited by fragtagninja; August 19, 2013 at 09:09 PM.
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Old August 19, 2013, 09:37 PM   #64
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I'm not familiar with those rails you linked, but if you get one of them I'd recommend one where the delta ring is removed and it only attaches to the barrel nut (either theirs or the stock one). This will free-float the barrel (which improves accuracy) and still provide a very rigid mount for the rail.

I do have experience with Troy rails; I like the Troy VTac modular rail:

http://store.troyind.com/Troy_VTAC_B...vk-13bt-01.htm

I have the 13" one on a 16" barreled rifle and the length is perfect for me: it's long enough to allow a good forward hold but not too long. A 15" rail will be just short of being even with the back of your muzzle device; too long in my opinion (unless you want it to butt right up to a suppressor).

The VTac rail is great because it uses the original barrel nut but it still has a very sturdy mount. It does require removing the delta ring, but that's not too difficult. Keep in mind that it's skinny enough that some clamp-style gas blocks will still touch the inside of the rail. I originally used a Daniel Defense clamp-style gas block, but it touched, so I switched to a YHM clamp-style mount. It still touched when I flexed the rail so I ground it down a little until it didn't touch even when I pushed hard on the rail. You could avoid this by using a set-screw type gas block (they tend to be lower-profile), but I didn't want the hassle of dimpling the barrel for the set screws.
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Old August 19, 2013, 11:46 PM   #65
fragtagninja
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That is the exact Troy rail I was looking at. I have heard nothing but good things about it. Glad you have enjoyed it as well.

What do you mean dimple the barrel?

Would it be better or even just cheaper to buy an upper with the rail already on it?

Thanks for the input man.

I need to start looking at scopes too. Ugh..... Optics can such a chore.
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Old August 20, 2013, 12:14 AM   #66
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If you can find an upper with the exact parts you want it will most likely be cheaper. But finding an upper set up exactly how you want might be tough, which is why many people build their own.

To answer your question about dimpling the barrel: Some gas blocks clamp to the barrel:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as...BL&groupid=590

And some have two set screws that screw from below and tighten the gas block to the barrel:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/123...er-steel-matte

Some people say the set screw types make a better gas seal, but they work best when you drill two shallow dimples in the barrel for each set screw to go into. So I use the clamp types because they don't require drilling those dimples and they've worked fine for me so far.
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Old August 20, 2013, 11:17 AM   #67
Bartholomew Roberts
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I'm running an Aimpoint T1 on a 45 degree offset next to a TA11 ACOG. The big place I find it really useful is where I need to shoot from my offside - that can be difficult to do with the ACOG due to the combo of magnification, non-dominant eye and cheekweld. If I didn't have that requirement, I probably wouldn't se it at all.

I'll warn you that you can get a good face full of gas from the ejection port that way - especially when you use a suppressor.
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Old August 20, 2013, 01:46 PM   #68
fragtagninja
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Yeah I don't think I want to drill into the barrel if I don't have to.

Thanks for the info Bart. I was hoping to stay below $500 on an optic, and the ACOG might be awesome, but way more than I want to spend and I was looking for something that has better eye relief than an ACOG. Aimpoint is on my list of possibles, but I was hoping to start with a scope. I have been considering a Nikon M223. I have heard good things about it. Anyone know of big chain stores that carry a lot of scopes so I can check the clarity and such before I buy?

Also I realize this is probably a whole different can of worms, but why are the AR10's made out of what is considered inferior materials? For instance high price AR10 has 4140 barrel. High price AR15 has a 4150 barrel. Does it have something to do with the rounds they are firing? I would think the .308 would need the better steel more than the .223.

Last edited by fragtagninja; August 20, 2013 at 09:21 PM.
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