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Old December 16, 2011, 02:31 PM   #51
C0untZer0
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@Skadoosh

I don't know what to think of Brass Fetcher's results for the 124gr +P Gold Dots.

My understanding of how the FBI used ordnance gel - they would "calibrate" it with a BB chronographed between 590 and 610 fps that penetrated between 8.3 to 9.5 cm, and if the BB penetration fell outside of that range - they would discard that block of geletin.

But Brass Fetcher's calibration came in at 11.2cm @ 599 ft/sec.

And then he states that the results are "corrected" I'm guessing that he's using Duncan MacPherson's for gauging penetration based on the calibration. I know that it's a common practice.

Quote:
As you might notice, the bullets all penetrated the length of the gelatin block. This was because the block had lower viscosity than the 'perfect' block. All bullets penetrated the back of the block, two struck the face of a 60lbf bag of play sand and fell to the deck. The actual penetration of these bullets was determined as (16.0-1.7) inch.
I would rather get a test in properly calibrated gelatin than have a test in insufficiently viscous gel and then have a formula applied to the raw data to give an end result. When I see that the BB velocity was out of spec or the pentration of the BB was out of spec, I see if I can find another test somewhere that didn't require the numbers to be massaged.

Firearms Tactical Institute tested the 124gr +P Gold Dot, but their test had a BB chrono at 588 fps (out of spec) and penetrated 7 cm (out of spec), and their corrected results for bare gelatin were 13.2" 0.62" expansion. In the 4 denim test - 16.1" penetrated and 0.53" expansion. So their corrected results for the 124 +P Gold Dot were two inches deeper than Brass Fetcher's.

But the other thing I wanted to mention is some bullets act completely differently in the 4 denim test.

The Winchester Ranger "T" 127gr +P+ RA9TA behaves relatively the same in bare gelatin, heavy clothing and 4 denim, but the 9mm 124 +P bonded bullet - the RA9BAB goes from penetrating 12.6" in bare gelatin to zipping through to 18+ inches in denim and heavy clothing.
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Old December 16, 2011, 04:24 PM   #52
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Quote:
It was all laid bare on TRIGGERS during the second show last week when the camera recorded the impact on ballistic gel of a 38 Long Colt versus a 45 ACP. The difference was nothing short of phenomenal. Big, slow, and painful to watch even the gelatin getting hit by the forty-five. It made a believer out of me. I may get one now.
As also seen on TRIGGERS, scrap the 45ACP and go with the 30-06.
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Old August 4, 2013, 11:16 AM   #53
Secretariat
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Forgive the ignorance as I am still with guns and ammo but what does a Bonded round mean?What are the differences between a Bonded and a None-Bonded round?
Thanks.
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Old August 4, 2013, 09:36 PM   #54
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No problem, Secretariat-

"Bonded" refers to the bullet's core material being (chemically or thermally) fused or physically attached to the bullet's jacket material as means of preventing the core from slipping forward and out of the jacket after expansion occurs.

"Unbonded" are bullets of "cup and core" construction- that is, a copper/gilding metal jacket is struck and extruded into a "cup" and then the lead alloy "core" is mechanically forced into the cup to fabricate the bullet. In bullet's of such construction there is no physical attachment of core material to jacket material leaving the core free to move forward and out of the jacket after impact/expansion. Certain manufacturers have incorporated mechanical locking bands into the design with mixed results.
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Old August 5, 2013, 06:12 AM   #55
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Two year old thread on ammo which may not be on the shelf...anywhere.
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Old August 5, 2013, 06:40 AM   #56
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" I like subsonic ammo so that if I ever have to use it, the damage to my hearing might be a little less."
You're kidding, right?
After doing some personal testing, I'll not be using 147 grain ammo in my carry gun unless it's the only choice. In fact, I don't use +P either-if standard 9mm isn't going to be good enough, I'll use a bigger gun/cartridge.
My tests using water jugs, wet newsprint, and wounded or vehicle injured deer proved to my satisfaction that 124 grain GoldDot bullets will do what I expect a 9mm handgun to do in the most effective manner. My stock of 9mm 147 grain ammo is relegated to carbine use-it really shines in that capacity BTW.
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Old August 7, 2013, 02:15 PM   #57
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Quote:
Two year old thread on ammo which may not be on the shelf...anywhere
True, but it was brought back from the dead to ask a very pertinent question, which was answered well. Secretariat asked and surprised many of us.

Who knew a famous racehorse would use the internet?

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Old August 7, 2013, 10:55 PM   #58
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Thanks a lot for all your replies.By the way,someone told me that with the new technology of the 9mm ammo today,they are almost as good as the 40 SW?Is this true?
Thanks again.
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Old August 8, 2013, 12:00 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretariat:
Thanks a lot for all your replies.By the way,someone told me that with the new technology of the 9mm ammo today,they are almost as good as the 40 SW?Is this true?
Thanks again.
That's a loaded question. (pun very much intended)

Generally speaking, it's a very level playing-field across the range service calibers these days. That is to say, that within any given configuration, they are all about as good, or as bad, as one another.

Many folks looking to caliber as a solution for some perceived issue would be better served by seeking a little more quality training. Here's hoping you find what you are looking for!
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Old August 8, 2013, 12:44 PM   #60
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you may find these videos helpful

124+p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8h8Cy31xj8

147

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvLvVONAiAg
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Old August 9, 2013, 04:46 PM   #61
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Real true stories of the Highway Patrol...

In the mid 1990s, I read a gun press item about how a SWAT 147gr +P+ fired from a duty pistol went thru a subject & lodged in a wall.
The crime scene techs dug out the 9x19mm bullet & said it could be reloaded & fired again!

I'm not a big fan of "hush-puppies".
I prefer the 124gr +P round. I used to advise the wt because you could buy cheaper 124gr ball or NATO surplus 9mm but in the summer of 2013, that's a fond memory...
Now, you have to grab what ever you can get your sweaty mitts on!

I still do not suggest using the 147gr load but it's very popular. A large security firm in my metro area that's "high-speed, low drag" mandates the 147gr JHP.
FWIW; my city's metro PD issues the Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP(SIG P226R).
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Old August 10, 2013, 03:09 PM   #62
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i like the 124+p.
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Old August 11, 2013, 12:15 PM   #63
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Six of one, half dozen of the other

I have about an equal amount of 147 gr. 9mm Win Silver Tip Hollow Point as I do 124 gr. 9mm FMJ NATO loads. I think they are both decent, but different, and would probably change one for the other pretty comfortably but like the balance of the slower rounds for defensive use a bit more. I'm not shooting these in the latest wonder nine's though -- both my 9mm's were designed in the 1930's although both are post-war! LOL

Notice the old standard 115 gr. FMJ is kinda off the table.

BTW, I do have heavier weight recoil (and firing pin) springs for if and when I ever switch to a full-time diet of NATO/+P ammo.
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Old August 11, 2013, 11:45 PM   #64
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match grade, real combat....

I think a lot of 9mm pistol owners or those who are interested in the firearms industry get hung up on marksmanship or accuracy vs the actual design or performance of a 9mm round.

It's not complex and in 2013, there are a # of high quality brands.
Keep in mind that in a real lethal force event, you are aiming(shooting) at a living breathing human being that is actively trying to kill you!
A human torso isn't a 2" circle 50 yards away. A well made 9x19mm round or a series of rounds will cause the desired effect if its in the right location.

You can't pick a handgun load, think its superior design or brand name will create the needed response then not train or condition yourself.

Clyde
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Old August 12, 2013, 07:20 PM   #65
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Quote:
with the new technology of the 9mm ammo today,they are almost as good as the 40 SW?Is this true?
I have no experience with shooting jello or people, but I do pay attention to what is said by those who do. For instance, no nonsense instructor and NYPD Sgt Pat Rogers makes a very good argument that compared to the best of the modern 9mm rounds, you get no more self-defense effectiveness from using the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP. He recommends and carries a 9mm, which tends to be the S&W M&P model.

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Old August 12, 2013, 07:27 PM   #66
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Quote:
...SWAT 147gr +P+ fired from a duty pistol went thru a subject & lodged in a wall.
Was that right through the chest of a well muscled 6' 4'' thug, or right through only 0.864 inches of the flabby tissue on the back of an old geezer's arm?

The details do make a difference.

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Old August 14, 2013, 09:39 AM   #67
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The lighter bullet has worked well from my wife's G19 for many years. 100% reliable feeding, great expansion in any medium we've tested, and somewhat lighter recoil than the heavier round. Accuracy from either is about the same. So she carries with the 124 gr round with confidence. HTH's, Rod
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