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Old August 4, 2013, 07:29 AM   #51
Bezoar
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it doesnt take to long to google up the synopsis, but itll cost 35 dollars to get the actual paper.
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Old August 4, 2013, 10:31 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezoar
it doesnt take to long to google up the synopsis, but itll cost 35 dollars to get the actual paper.
It's not our job to Google anything. If you make a claim, it's your burden to support it with actual evidence. If you're unable to do so, we can ignore your claim.
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Old August 4, 2013, 09:32 PM   #53
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Gee, thirty-five bucks to get the answer (maybe) to an anonymous assertion made on the 'net? What a deal!
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Old August 5, 2013, 12:06 AM   #54
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Expansion vs Penetration

Threads like this recall an interesting discussion about realistic vs unrealistic expectations of handgun rounds. Caliber wars frequently feature tales of various rounds "failing", which is commonly presented as a high count stop. For example, "I know an FBI HRT agent who shot a hijacker 7 times with .45 JHP before he went down." Realistic expectation is that it very well may require so many rounds to put down a determined criminal. This is a software fail, not a hardware fail.

I mention this now, because I could see this thread turning a sharp corner into caliber war country.
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Old August 6, 2013, 07:44 AM   #55
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http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ighlight=sanow

thats just one.

44 army is basically a standard 38 special when it comes to performance. not fancy, but it gets the job.
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Old August 6, 2013, 11:39 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezoar
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ighlight=sanow

thats just one.

44 army is basically a standard 38 special when it comes to performance. not fancy, but it gets the job.
What is this? In post 49 you made certain claims that there was research that showed something. I asked for documentation. Now you post a link to an old thread on THR.

That sure isn't good enough for me.
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Old August 8, 2013, 09:46 PM   #57
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I know I'm weighing in a bit late but I noticed something in the Study by Frank Ellifritz is that:

Quote:
Every shot in this study took place during a military battle or an altercation with a criminal.
Aside from the wonderful analysis and summary by Frank Ettin which is pretty much dead on, one thing that would be careful to remember in the 1 shot stopping percentage is that most .22 users would not be military or police.

What my inference is here is that military and police are going to be the ones typically carrying the rounds that had a lower one shot stop percentage but they are also usually walking INTO situations where the BG is prepared mentally to keep going. So, the data is skewed in that sense. I think we all agree that the psychological stopping power in an everyday situation of self defense is the largest factor but these numbers won't reflect that because of the situational background in which they are being used.

I hope that was clear, not sure how to express it better at the moment.
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Old August 9, 2013, 04:58 PM   #58
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I think we need more new people to start these threads again and again, so they can be debated again and again.....
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Old August 9, 2013, 09:48 PM   #59
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I don't think it's a realistic expectation that these threads will go away. There are obviously a number of topics that become re-runs to us that are still of enough interest that A) new people keep making them, and B) the rest of us keep participating in the threads.

Besides, there are only so many possible topics. If we stop participating in-, or allowing these types of discussions, the board will die.
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Old August 10, 2013, 10:37 AM   #60
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Some interesting points in the op, which seem to make sense at first glance, but a bit of careful thought points out where some of the are...less than fully factually inclusive.

Quote:
(I'll define "vital" as a large artery, heart, spine or brain.)

1. The bullet expands and comes in contact with a vital. (A mid to high powered cartridge (1000fps+), with excellent expansion design)

2. The bullet expands and doesn't penetrate deep enough to come in contact with a vital. (A low to mid powered cartridge (1000fps-), with excellent expansion design.)

3. The bullet doesn't expand and misses a vital due to the bullets smaller diameter. ( A mid powered cartridge (1000fps).)

4. The bullet doesn't expand and hits a vital due to accurate shot placement.
( A mid powered cartridge (1000fps).)

5. The bullet over penetrates and potentially causes collateral damage. ( A mid to high powered cartridge (1000fps+).)
Seems sensible, but reality is that any of the possible outcomes is possible with any cartridge, low, medium or high velocity. More likely with some, but possible with all. (and I think #3, is particularly misleading, as written, implying that the bullet missing a vital has anything to do with the power level of the round)

Studies are great things, and sometimes actually deliver useful information. But drawing correct conclusions, even from fully accurate data is tricky. One can determine general trends, but general trends are just that, general. You can find cases where everything failed. You can find cases where everything worked. What you cannot find is any way of knowing in advance if the shooting you get involved in will follow the general rule, or be an exception.

Quote:
A mid powered hollow point could teeter between no expansion and under-penetration
or it could do something else, like completely penetrate....
Quote:
A mid powered full metal jacket could teeter between missed vitals and over-penetration.
How big a part does FMJ construction play in "missing a vital" anyway? I think that would be a shooter function, not the bullet.

Quote:
It seems that a non-expanding bullet in a high powered cartridge would be the most reliable. Relying only on the shooters ability.
That would be military FMJ rifle ammo, widely recognized for its stopping power, right?

And doesn't everything rely on the shooter's ability, as a baseline?

Quote:
1. FPS alone does not tell you how much damage will be caused but it can tell you if the bullet will expand.
Nice to know, I suppose, but really only tells you if you should expect the bullet to expand. Real world variables in addition to the FPS determine if the bullet will perform as expected.
Quote:
2. A 124 grain FMJ 9mm fired from a barrel which delivers 1,000+ fps should provide adequate penetration to hit a vital with the chance of over penetration
Which, incidently is the original loading for the 9mm Luger. A 124grFMJ @ 1050fps (later increased to 1100fps).

Stopping power discussions are certainly more informative than ones about angels dancing on the heads of pins, but putting all one's faith in any theory being the absolute truth every single time doesn't seem to square with observed real world results. There are no magic bullets.....
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