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Old August 5, 2013, 06:38 PM   #1
rrruger
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Limp wrist question...new to autos

I have heard of small autos failing to cycle the next round as a result of limp wristing. I understand that most 9mm shooters use a 115 grain or lighter bullet. My question is that if a light round leaves a short barrel 'too quickly' can the lack of pressure on the slide contribute to limp wristing. Or, to put it another way, could going to a heavier load (125-130 grain) slow the bullet down and allow the slide to recycle completely?
thank you for your input.
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Old August 5, 2013, 07:36 PM   #2
James K
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It is not only small autos. A semi-auto pistol functions because either gas pressure or recoil moves the frame and the slide backward. But the slide is not solidly attached to the frame, and the frame will tend to remain in place by inertia while the slide moves in relation to it. If the frame has enough mass, inertia alone will keep it stationary enough for the gun to operate. But if the frame mass is low (in relation to the bullet mass), it takes the additional mass and resistance of the shooter's hand to keep the motion of the frame low enough for the gun to function. If the hand does not provide enough support, if the wrist is limp and can bend under recoil rather than resisting it, the frame will move backward with the slide and the gun will malfunction.

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Old August 5, 2013, 07:54 PM   #3
Bullcamp82834
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Have someone who knows show you the proper way to employ the modified Weaver hold and stance. Limp wristing will no longer be a problem.

Many new shooters try to use an isocoles (sp?) stance and this is a setup for limp wristing with a semi auto.
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Old August 5, 2013, 08:07 PM   #4
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I run across ladies all the time who have problems "limp wristing". Simple fix no matter how small the person is.

Make a fist, hold it out pointing with your index finger like its a gun. Keeping the fist straight with the arm have someone take two fingers and hold the top of the wrist. Then that person takes two fingers from his other hand and pushed up on the fist. It moves.

Now do the same thing, only the one pointing the finger locks the wrist down a tad. Again the other party pushed down on the arm with two fingers and up on the bottom of the fist with two fingers. You can't move the wrist.

So simply lock your wrist down a tad. You can tell how much simply by looing at the top of the fist, you will see a straight line running along the top of the fist to the forearm. If its not a straight line, you aren't locking the wrist properly.
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Old August 5, 2013, 08:28 PM   #5
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Generally speaking, smaller pistols require stiffer springs to contain the recoiling slide. To allow the springs to do their job the shooter must provide adequate resistance. If the pistol is not held tightly enough, the entire gun moves rather than the slide compressing the springs as it moves on the frame. The result is the slide doesn't move through it's full stroke.
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Old August 5, 2013, 08:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullcamp82834
Many new shooters try to use an isocoles (sp?) stance and this is a setup for limp wristing with a semi auto.
???

Please explain. A proper isosceles stance doesn't contribute to "limp wristing" any more or any less than a Weaver stance or a "modified" Weaver stance. And it's clever of you to conflate references to one stance versus another grip. There's nothing quite like comparing apples to pomegranates. Where you place your feet has nothing to do with how firmly you grasp your firearm.
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Old August 5, 2013, 08:59 PM   #7
rrruger
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Quote:
Generally speaking, smaller pistols require stiffer springs to contain the recoiling slide. To allow the springs to do their job the shooter must provide adequate resistance. If the pistol is not held tightly enough, the entire gun moves rather than the slide compressing the springs as it moves on the frame. The result is the slide doesn't move through it's full stroke.
What I am wondering here is if a large slow moving 'plug' (a heavier bullet) would provide more recoil on spring than a lighter faster bullet, and insure a complete cycle in spite of the grip?
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Old August 5, 2013, 11:13 PM   #8
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OK Aguilar,

From the question marks I see you don't get it. I'm talking about a locked in hold on the weapon, body bladed toward the target offering a much smaller target for an opponent to fire at than offering yourself broadside in an isosceles. Not to mention the modified Weaver with body bladed and feet not pointed where the bullets are going helps the upper body complete the lock up and hold the weapon steadier. Hence less chance to limp wrist.

My idea was to encourage the poster to get some instruction that may be beneficial in case he ever has to use his weapon for its intended purpose. It's much better to learn it right in the first place than to develop bad habits.

Last edited by Bullcamp82834; August 5, 2013 at 11:18 PM.
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Old August 6, 2013, 07:17 AM   #9
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"What I am wondering here is if a large slow moving 'plug' (a heavier bullet) would provide more recoil on spring than a lighter faster bullet, and insure a complete cycle in spite of the grip? "
While a slower, heavier bullet MIGHT make a small difference in the possibility, the solution is correctly holding the pistol. Using a bandaid on a broken arm will only result in a more serious problem later.
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Old August 6, 2013, 12:43 PM   #10
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Light bullet, heavy bullet, no matter.
It's a proper hold that controls muzzle flip and let's the slide ram straight back that lets the weapon function as designed.
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Old August 6, 2013, 12:46 PM   #11
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Weaver vs Isosceles.
Hoo Boy, I gotta' get in on this one.
Just about every shooting style has advantages and disadvantages.
For example, the Weaver reduces the profile, and can provide better protection from behind cover.
But for a right handed shooter, it puts the heart out front, in harms way.
It also restricts movement more than the Isosceles.
The Isosceles, properly used, can reduce the effect of recoil, even with rifles and shotguns.
And it's faster shooting.
And on and on.
And we haven't even touched on one handed methods.
Or shooting under things.
There's no one perfect method.
The really good shootists know and can employ them all.
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Last edited by g.willikers; August 6, 2013 at 01:11 PM.
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Old August 6, 2013, 12:56 PM   #12
Rj1972
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rrruger,

It basically comes down to grip. Grip it correctly (and tightly) and you shouldn't have a problem. Personally I like the thumbs forward grip. I see 3 main things that people do that helps cause malfunctions:
1. folks not holding the gun high enough in the hand (not moving the firing hand high enough on the back of the pistol)
2. Not using the support hand to properly wrap around the front of the hand guard (often just using the tips of their fingers around the handguard/knuckles of the firing hand or putting their support hand under the gun "teacup" style)
3. Not using enough force while gripping the gun.

I personally think that small autos (think LCP or so) are less forgiving to improperly gripping the gun resulting in more malfunctions. Oh, and I don't THINK it has to do with bullet weight. But that's just my opinion.

I think this video is a pretty good demonstration of what to do (and what not to do). But again, that's just my opinion as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y7r6nPmLGI
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Old August 6, 2013, 03:41 PM   #13
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I have to say this thread is the very first time I've seen a stance blamed for causing a handgun failure to fire.
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Old August 6, 2013, 04:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullcamp82834
From the question marks I see you don't get it. I'm talking about a locked in hold on the weapon, body bladed toward the target offering a much smaller target for an opponent to fire at than offering yourself broadside in an isosceles. Not to mention the modified Weaver with body bladed and feet not pointed where the bullets are going helps the upper body complete the lock up and hold the weapon steadier. Hence less chance to limp wrist.
Complete, utter nonsense.

The body position has nothing to do with whether or not the shooter takes a firm grip on the firearm. In fact, a proper isosceles stance includes locking the elbows and wrists, which absolutely precludes any possibility of limp wristing.

There are lots of arguments both for and against isosceles, Weaver, and modified Weaver for tactical and practical reasons, but none of that in any way relates to the question of limp wristing. To avoid limp writing, the shooter grips the firearm firmly, locks the wrists, and pushes forward with the strong hand while resisting with the support hand. All of that is independent of where you place and how you orient your feet and/or shoulders.
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Old August 6, 2013, 04:44 PM   #15
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Generally...if your having stovepipe malfunctions, you're limp wristing. I would be more concerned about worn out and weakened recoil springs, than I would be about using lighter or heavier bullets. You'll have to measure the length of your recoil spring to determine whether it is worn out or not.

A bladed biological living humanoid target...will be vulnerable to a piercing object, that might ensure a double lung hit, that enters under the armpit.
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Old August 6, 2013, 05:42 PM   #16
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Limp wristing really has nothing to do with grip or stance, its caused by allowing the gun and your arm to move rearwards with recoil.

Ive fired Glocks (you know, the worst gun to have for limp wristing) with absolutely "no" grip, just the guns trigger guard resting on my middle finger and grip on the web of my hand, and the only thing keeping the gun from leaving my hand while shooting, was my trigger finger in the trigger guard. I shot 4 full mags, 68 rounds, without a single stoppage shooting this way.

As long as you have mass "behind" the gun, and dont allow that mass to move rearwards with the gun in recoil, you shouldnt have any troubles.
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Old August 6, 2013, 06:18 PM   #17
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Looks like we've come to the usual finish line in almost any gun debate.

Everybody with as much as a day's shooting under his belt has his opinion and is sticking to it.

Throw another log in the stove and let's kick something else around for a while.
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Old August 6, 2013, 06:44 PM   #18
AK103K
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Some of us have two days, and no belt, and stick to nothing.

What do you want to kick around? (Insert your favorite gun here) are better than everything else?
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Old August 6, 2013, 07:07 PM   #19
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Whoa....better than everything else?
That's a tall order. Does it even exist?

Id go into my dissertation on the best elk rifle of all time but that's a topic for a different forum.
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Old August 7, 2013, 12:14 AM   #20
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I can't name any competitive shooters who use the Weaver.

I can't name any LE agencies that teach the Weaver.

As to limp wristing, it is what it sounds like, so stop it.

Don't grip the crap out of it, but do hold it like a firm handshake. Any tigher than that and you will have a hard time isolating the trigger pull and will push rounds off to the left (assuming right handed shooter).
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Old August 9, 2013, 12:25 PM   #21
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Quote:
What I am wondering here is if a large slow moving 'plug' (a heavier bullet) would provide more recoil on spring than a lighter faster bullet, and insure a complete cycle in spite of the grip?
No.

next question.

It is odd that "limp wristing" was never a problem in the old days. It is extremely rare to find any discussion about it before the widespread use of polymer frame pistols. Also very rare to find any discussion about it in pre-internet gun magazines and books.

Stovepipes, and other jams were in those day attributed (probably correctly) to other causes, generally.

The simple fact is that auto pistols require something to recoil against for proper function. And that some are more sensitive about it than others.

Your specific grip style doesn't matter. What matters is that the gun has a "solid" force to push back against. In very small calibers the inertia of the pistol itself may be fully sufficient. Particularly with blow back action designs. Larger locked breech designs will also often run fine no matter how they are held. But (apparently) some guns won't.

I've been shooting auto pistols for recreation for over 40 years, in calibers ranging from .22LR to .45magnum. Some guns will work better when held certain ways. But there is no overall blanket that applies to everything, other than that some guns will display traits that make it "different from the herd".

If someone tells you that your troubles are limp wristing, let them shoot your gun, and see! IT may be you. IT may not.

If it is you, going to a heavier bullet won't change that.
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Old August 9, 2013, 04:06 PM   #22
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Limp wristing really has nothing to do with grip or stance, its caused by allowing the gun and your arm to move rearwards with recoil.
I agree; call it "limp arming", if you will. Doing that will almost guarantee stovepipes in many autos, particularly polymer framed ones from what I've found in my own experimentation.
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