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Old August 6, 2013, 04:15 PM   #1
steve4102
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American Legion Bans Guns

The American Legion post 71 in Duluth MN banned guns.



Is it just me or is this about as Hypocritical as it can get??

A Veterans Organization that does not support the 2nd Amendment? I find that appalling.

Before you guys go off on the serving "Alcohol" deal, it is legal in MN to carry both open or concealed in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol and there is no State statute that requires the Legion or any other bar to "Ban" firearms.
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Old August 6, 2013, 04:18 PM   #2
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If it's like every other legion watering hole I've ever seen they've got a far larger problem with drunks than guns by a long shot...............and FYI.....I AM an AL member!

If that was my post I'd be raising hell with the poster!
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Old August 6, 2013, 05:04 PM   #3
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I hear the VFW is still accepting new members ...
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Old August 6, 2013, 05:29 PM   #4
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Did you bother to go in and ask why they banned guns?

The assumption that they are against the 2nd Amendment is as assinine as saying I am against the 1st Amendment because I don't wish to have any Justin Bieber albums in my home.
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Old August 6, 2013, 05:36 PM   #5
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What veterans fought (fight) for is freedom. Freedom includes being able to deny access to private property for any reason not specifically part of a "protected class".

Freedom also includes the right to disagree with those choices and to refuse to patronize the establishments which make those choices.

I love freedom.
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Old August 6, 2013, 08:00 PM   #6
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I support the Right to Ban Bieber.

I'm against business bans, sorry - Brian.

But if the VFW is a club - that's their business.
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Old August 6, 2013, 08:12 PM   #7
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I've done a fair bit of work for a state Judge Advocate and a number of posts.

Like any other organisation, an AL post will have plenty of stupidity to go around, but this may not be an example of it.

Most lucrative posts have a liquor license. If state liquor department regs prohibit guns in the licensed area of the post, then they have to keep them out or give up the license. I had a liquor license threatened because there was a report that someone had smoked on the licensed portion of the premises.
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Old August 6, 2013, 08:51 PM   #8
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Ok, I give, how do we make freedom loving Americans exercising their unalienable right to bear arms a protected class? BTW, I'm feeling "infringed."
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Old August 6, 2013, 09:03 PM   #9
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My Grandfather-in-law's legion hall in NE Ohio also bans firearms, even though they no longer serve beer there...must be a legion thing
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Old August 6, 2013, 10:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Most lucrative posts have a liquor license. If state liquor department regs prohibit guns in the licensed area of the post, then they have to keep them out or give up the license.
Zukiphile -- go back and read post number 1, the part below the photo.
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Old August 6, 2013, 10:20 PM   #11
Vanya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102
...there is no State statute that requires the Legion or any other bar to "Ban" firearms
Their insurance company, on the other hand, can make them do anything it wants.
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Old August 7, 2013, 07:53 AM   #12
steve4102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
Their insurance company, on the other hand, can make them do anything it wants.
Not really. Could they require a sign saying "No Blacks" allowed, or "No Gays" Allowed, even "No Women" allowed? I think Not.
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Old August 7, 2013, 07:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemanspiff
Did you bother to go in and ask why they banned guns?
This sign was brought to my attention by the host of our Local Morning Talk Radio show. He is a Veteran and organizes fund raiser and the like for Veterans and the less fortunate.

Last week he was organizing another fund raiser Spaghetti feed at the Legion when he bumped into this sign for the first time. The following Monday the topic was brought up on his talk show by a concerned caller. He voiced his concerns as well and ask if any "Board" members would like to call in and comment on the reasons for the sign.

It didn't take long for a Board member to call in and explain the reason for the sign. According to this board member the Legion is "Required" by Law to post the sign as it is Illegal in MN to carry a firearm in a business that serves Alcohol.

This is of course not true as it is legal to carry in bars and restaurants with a permit in the State of MN.



Yeah, I know that liquor and gun's don't mix, but to tell members they cannot carry with a big A sign just open's them up to be robbed or the patron's to be assaulted/mugged in the parking lot. This Legion is also located in one of the worst neighborhoods in town. I personally would not be in that parking lot alone and unarmed at night, Especially with a Billboard telling every low-life in the area that I am a Sitting Duck.

I didn't work for movie goers and it didn't work for Teachers and students, what makes them think it will work for Old Retired Veterans.

Last edited by steve4102; August 7, 2013 at 08:05 AM.
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Old August 7, 2013, 08:44 AM   #14
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Really angers me to see that.
I am an American Legion member and support the Constitution.
However, I can understand that almost any kind of idiotic motion can get passed at a meeting. At my post most, and I do mean "most", of the members are very elderly. I am 74 and one of the 'kids'. They'll raise their hand without understanding what the issue is.
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Old August 7, 2013, 08:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
Not really. Could they require a sign saying "No Blacks" allowed, or "No Gays" Allowed, even "No Women" allowed? I think Not.
Actually, there's a good chance they could do those things, depending on their legal business type or organizational charter.

That's not really the point though, as there are such things as Protected Classes and gun owners aren't on the list.
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Old August 7, 2013, 09:14 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
Their insurance company, on the other hand, can make them do anything it wants.
Not really. Could they require a sign saying "No Blacks" allowed, or "No Gays" Allowed, even "No Women" allowed? I think Not.
Sorry, but this is a false analogy. It should go without saying that an insurance company can't force a client to do something illegal. Those groups are protected classes under Minnesota law; concealed carry permit holders are not, and in any case, the sign is a ban on a class of inanimate objects, not a class of people. Businesses may, for example, require people to wear shirts or shoes; they have the option of conforming to the requirement if they really want to enter the premises -- or not.

None of this is to say that I approve; it seems very odd that a veterans' group wouldn't support gun rights, and I'm suggesting a possible explanation.

ETA: Brian, Minnesota has a strong civil rights law, and it would be very hard to justify any such discrimination in premises that are open to the public.
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Last edited by Vanya; August 7, 2013 at 09:34 AM.
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Old August 7, 2013, 09:52 AM   #17
Brian Pfleuger
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That's why I say "depending on their business type or organizational charter."

In the context, the insurance company couldn't require it but certain organizational types kind ban anyone they want.

I'm not really sure what rules apply to the AL. They're almost "semi-public".
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Old August 7, 2013, 12:09 PM   #18
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Their insurance company, on the other hand, can make them do anything it wants.
Insurance carriers do not set specific criteria for each state when writing business. For example, they won't take into consideration that one state bans firearms on premises where alcohol is sold for consumption on premise, versus a state that does not ban such. All that typically matters to an insurance company is that the question is asked "Do you have firearms on premises?" And that question is not directly pointed to actions of the insureds customers, its about the insured and their employees.

I attended an OSHA conference some years back and was able to ask the speaker about businesses that post signs like the one shown at this AL. His response was that its only a 'feel good measure' that makes the company more comfortable. He likened it to the signs at a carnival stating 'you must be xxxx tall to ride'. That doesn't mean that someone who is shorter than the height recommended will be denied coverage in the event of a loss. And it doesn't necessarily mean someone who is armed will be denied coverage in the event of a loss on a premise where signs indicate possession of a firearm is prohibited.
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Old August 7, 2013, 12:22 PM   #19
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All that typically matters to an insurance company is that the question is asked "Do you have firearms on premises?" And that question is not directly pointed to actions of the insureds customers, its about the insured and their employees.
Agreed. And they base their rates on the answers to such questions. An insurance company may not require a business to have sprinklers... but if it makes a major difference to the premium, it can come to the same thing. If a "no guns" sign lowered the rate for liability insurance, a business, or other organization, might need to post one, especially if it were struggling in the current economy.

Mileage varies. The new Wisconsin concealed carry law immunizes businesses that don't prohibit guns from civil liability claims, but not those that do. That's not the case in Minnesota.
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Last edited by Vanya; August 7, 2013 at 12:49 PM.
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Old August 7, 2013, 02:31 PM   #20
zukiphile
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Rifleman1776, that sounds about right. Most of the time, the people involved mean well and are pretty generous with their time, but that doesn't always produce a well run post.

Quote:
Zukiphile -- go back and read post number 1, the part below the photo.
Thanks, I missed that.
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Old August 7, 2013, 03:23 PM   #21
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I'm pretty sure it's a drinking club and not a gun club. A drink of course, should preclude any gun handling on that day.
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Old August 7, 2013, 04:26 PM   #22
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And they base their rates on the answers to such questions. An insurance company may not require a business to have sprinklers... but if it makes a major difference to the premium, it can come to the same thing. If a "no guns" sign lowered the rate for liability insurance, a business, or other organization, might need to post one, especially if it were struggling in the current economy.
I'll give a technical explanation about that first sentence I am quoting Vanya. Rates for all classes of commercial insurance (in this case talking General Liability or Casualty) all start out the same, all set in place by actuaries who work for the federal govt, and they calculate the base rates by determining overall losses paid out. Each company will then look at business they have written for each class and calculate their own loss ratios and determine a Loss Cost Multiplier that they believe they need to apply to the base rates in order to cover potential losses. That LCM can vary between each state, and they must file it with each states Division of Insurance. They also file justification for the ability to apply debits or credits, as well as possible modifications that may apply for one particular company. (Example, AIG has a plethora of companies they write business through, Alaska has at least four companies from AIG, they don't all have the same LCMs, and they dont have the same company mod factors either. On one end of the spectrum, a policy might be placed with their company that has a 15% company mod credit, and may have up to 25% credits applied, or they could be on the other end with 15% company mod debit, and another 25% debit applied. So, in this example, an insured could have premiums 40% up or down from the base rates.)
The DOI scrutinizes these filings because their interest is not to help the insurers, but to protect the insureds. Once the company has their filings approved they then get to underwriting. Which is what my office does for companys: Underwrite on their behalf.

The insurance market goes through cycles that take years to reach the peak at either end. Referred to as a 'hard' or 'soft' market. Currently the market has bottomed out and has been about as soft as it could get. Market goes 'soft' when companies compete for the business and start lowering their LCMs or simply approve the use of the credits they filed for. Companies that fail to compete lose much of their customer base to competitors. for the next several years insurance rates will rise as companies file for higher rates/debits. It will reach a peak and then little by little, in an effort to draw more business carriers will start filing for lower rates.

The DOI is supposed to keep the carriers in check, and ensure that they are not gouging the marketplace.

OK back to the OP storyline here....
that sign prohibiting guns, probably is unknown to the ALs insurance company. I highly doubt they are getting lower rates just by posting that sign.
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Old August 9, 2013, 12:21 PM   #23
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Why are all these "Gun free zones" advertising themselves? I see no advantage to having "gun free zones" when the gun owners are all legal. Do they expect to get more business because they are "gun free?" I still don't understand the logic or the reason for these "Gun ban zones" and why a business would want to advertise that no one on the premises is carrying a firearm. Seems like it'd be an easy target for criminals.

The only explanation I can think of, is that the business' create the illusion of safety, by having "no guns." Because "Guns are dangerous and kill people." So if there are none you're safe right? It's got to be some sort of mediocre marketing scheme or something.
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Old August 9, 2013, 01:06 PM   #24
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the illusion of safety
Precisely. In fact the example I used when talking to the OSHA speaker was about the National Guard being posted around airports post 9/11 with unloaded rifles. The average person felt safer with the presence of a uniformed person securing the premise that appeared to be armed.
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Old August 9, 2013, 05:14 PM   #25
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What veterans fought (fight) for is freedom. Freedom includes being able to deny access to private property for any reason not specifically part of a "protected class".
I hate that argument. It implies that private vs public property is binary, that if some land or property isn't literally owned by the public then the owners should have the same power over visitors whether it's a private domicile, or an open undeveloped field (on private land), or a typical open-to-the-public store, or something in-between like the American Legion or Sam's Club.

I don't think that's the right way to look at the question of private property rights. I think even membership-only clubs shouldn't have unilateral power to prohibit responsible concealed firearm carry, any more than they should be able to dictate what color underwear should be.
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