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Old July 29, 2013, 03:44 PM   #26
sirgilligan
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I am still shopping for a CZ 527 Varmint. I contacted CZ and verified it is chambered for 5.56 NATO.

My reloading books show that the 5.56 is hotter, that is more powder than .223.

The way I think about it is like this: 5.56 is like .223 +P+
It is just an analogy, but one that I can remember.

Here is a quote from another forum on shooting 5.56 NATO in a bolt gun:

Quote:
Back when I was younger and stupider , I didn't know they were loaded to different max pressures.

I had a very nice Remington 700 BDL Varminter in .223. I found some 5.56 and thought, "I wonder how accurate this stuff is compared to my reloads?"

I shot one round, and it blew out the primer, blowing the primer indent back into my bolt, tying up the rifle. I was through for the day.

Took it to a gunsmith and he disassembled the bolt and got the piece of the primer out. I learned my lesson.
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Old July 29, 2013, 05:07 PM   #27
joleme
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The website for the cz says otherwise. Ive heard others say similar things after 'talking with customer service'.

While i dont doubt what you were told, if 5.56 isnt stamped on the barrel then you are just taking a chance with firing 5.56 out of it.

Maybe i can just find someone to trade .223 for my 5.56 rounds..... Or just save them for an ar later.
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Old July 29, 2013, 07:00 PM   #28
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Quote:
I would have to find a howa without a scope if I was going to buy one, I'm not thrilled about the scopes that come with rifles.
I agree, package deals with scopes are usually a waste of money IMO, you're buying the rifle you want and paying extra for a scope that isn't worth having. The Nikko Sterlings that come on those Howas are cheap junk.

Quote:
If I am buying 'regular' ammo 55gr .223 what twist should I be looking for?
I'm not a .223 expert but my Ruger M77 MKII target in .223 has a 1:9 twist and it shoots the 55 gr bullets VERY well. I'd say the 1:9 is about ideal for 55's and would also work well with heavier and lighter bullets, but anwhere from 1:8 to 1:12 should be ok.
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Old July 29, 2013, 07:45 PM   #29
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If I am buying 'regular' ammo 55gr .223 what twist should I be looking for?
The Howa 223's that I have seen are 1:12 twist. They will shoot ammo 55 grains and below fine. If you want to shoot ammo heavier than 55gr, look for a 1:8 or 1:9 twist. Both my Marlin X7VH and Savage 10FP are 1:9 and shoot 75 gr MHP's well out to 300 yards.
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Old July 29, 2013, 09:08 PM   #30
sirgilligan
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This is the reply from CZ USA:

I'm sure you know this already, but our rifles are built to CIP spec, which doesn't differentiate between .223 and 5.56, it uses the higher pressure of the two and considers them one cartridge. So our rifles are built to shoot anything from match .223 to surplus 5.56.
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Old July 29, 2013, 09:12 PM   #31
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I also contacted Browning and was told theirs are .223 only.

I only trust what the manufactures state and not what I read online.
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Old July 29, 2013, 09:26 PM   #32
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bolt

I'll comment that a bolt .223 is a useful rifle to have in the stable. Mine's a MarkX Mini-Mauser, but there are plenty of others.

One thought is to keep the rifle choice proportionate in size, ie,don't get carried away with an uber bull barrel and Hubble Telescope size optic. One of the joys of my Mini-Mauser w/ the 6x on it, is that its portable, easy to carry afoot and stow in the Bronco, and thus it goes places regularly. Conversely, my Ruger 77V in 22-250 is great shooter, but with its varmint tube and fixed 12x, is borderline crew served and only gets out for static shooting sessions.

I was at Gander Mtn the other day and there was some sort of Mossberg bolt there with a slender fluted barrel, synthetic stock, matte finish, in .223 that seemed very interesting, ...I don't know if it was the AR mag fed rifle or not.
Similarly, something like a Rem Model 7 would be in the same league. As mentioned the Savage Axis is another, and though a bit stout, the Hog Rifle in .223 could be another.....though a tad heavy.
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Old July 29, 2013, 09:32 PM   #33
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I have shot 5.56 out of my savage axis .223 many times and will do so again. Nothing wrong with it.
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Old July 29, 2013, 11:06 PM   #34
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first to sirgilligan, wasn't trying to call you a liar or anything. I just have seen plenty of people saying the same thing, though not for a $700 rifle like the cz, which is about the same as the mossberg mpv, so I am more inclined to believe it compared to the ones I've heard say that savage reps tell them 5.56 is fine also. I've called savage and been told otherwise which caused me to shy away from the axis I was going to purchase originally.

As for size concerns, I'm not really worried about size issues. I will only be using it for target/range shooting. I realize I can't get a tack driving super gun for the $300-600ish I want to spend, but something reasonable accurate would be great.

vanguard 2, mvp, maybe howa are dancing around my list. If I trusted my luck I would buy a cheap axis and fire whatever I wanted through it.

I really do wish that rifles could be returned if they sucked, but ah well.
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Old July 30, 2013, 02:10 AM   #35
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The 5.56 NATO max pressure spec is 62,000 psi
The SAAMI .223 max pressure spec is 55,000 psi.
The C.I.P .223 max pressure spec is 62,000 PSI

I personally don't shoot 5.56 rounds out of my .223 rifles, I have contacted the manufacturers of my .223 rifles and they both said not to fire .556 ammo in them. the "possibility of dangerously high pressure" was cited by both.

I can tell you for a fact that there are instances where high pressure can result from this. A family member of mine shot 5.56 in his bolt action .223 rifle, the bolt would not open, he took the rifle to a local smith to have the bolt opened and case removed.
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Old July 30, 2013, 07:46 AM   #36
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I have 2 AR 15's, one is a colt match target competition with 1 in 9 20" barrel, the other is a S&W Sport with 1 in 8 16" barrel. With handloads they will both shoot Sub MOA @ 100 yds. I only shoot handloads using 223 load data, never bought any 5.56 ammo but the option is there. I paid 600.00 for the Smith and 1200.00 for the colt and I cannot see where one is any more accurate then the other. Now I want an accurate bolt 223 rifle just because I do not have a bolt gun yet. I really like the 223 round and am not very interested in any other caliber.
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Old July 30, 2013, 08:59 AM   #37
sirgilligan
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I didn't take it that anyone was calling me a liar.

This is one of those topics where I think one should contact the manufacturers and not trust others, it is just too important.

I have read that you can have the throat of a .223 REM chamber altered into a 5.56 chamber. I just couldn't do that to a rifle. There are plenty of good ammo choices for .223, the big concern is the twist rate.
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Old July 30, 2013, 10:10 AM   #38
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as rebs said I have also just toyed with the idea of getting a colt first, but it seems a little overkill if I just want to have something as a range/target shooter. Honestly haven't looked into the accuracy of a colt at all. The only range near me is 100yds, though I think there is a 300yd range within 30 miles. It would solve my ammo dilemma but also costs 2x more than a bolt and would still need optics.

I don't know how accurate .223 is out of a 5.56 barrel, so all in all maybe it would be better if I just skip the 5.56 idea and drop down to .223.
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Old July 30, 2013, 11:18 AM   #39
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The ONLY difference I have seen in hours of reading between a .223 barrel and a 5.56 barrel is how long the throat is. IE, the part of the barrel just before the threads start. 5.56, to my understanding is slightly longer throat than a .223 barrel. I also have researched and found MOST MODERN bolt actions will fire 5.56 with no issues. Companies have lawyers to CYA and have every right and expectation to do so. The ONLY issues I have come upon is the .223 target barrels in a AR style rifle may SLIGHTLY erode the throat becuase of HEAVY rapid fire and use of 5.56 ammo becuase of more pressure and heat from the slightly hotter loads. The case dimensions of the two are IDENTICAL. So using reasoning and research there is little to no damage in a bolt action .223 firing 5.56 becuase of the inherent slow rate of fire.

But if one feels differently than me that is fine. I am just sharing my conclusions to EXTENSIVE research and talking with people with actual experience and knowledge of said activities.

Take it for what it is worth.
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Old July 30, 2013, 12:37 PM   #40
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I am shooting hand loads in both my AR's using Lake City brass loaded to 223 Rem data. No problems and very accurate, most of my hand loads shoot sub MOA @ 100 yds.
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Old July 30, 2013, 01:31 PM   #41
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Quote:
I am shooting hand loads in both my AR's using Lake City brass loaded to 223 Rem data. No problems and very accurate, most of my hand loads shoot sub MOA @ 100 yds.
If I'm not talking about hitting exact perfect bullseyes, what size of targets would be considered 'easy/moderate/difficult' at 100yds?


It's kinda of sad that this all started because I was looking at a savage axis for a 'starter' and it quickly escalated to something more expensive. I'm just worried if I take the 'cheap route' and buy an axis or something as low priced that it will end up being a waste of money, or frustrating to shoot.
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Old July 30, 2013, 02:55 PM   #42
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Quote:
as rebs said I have also just toyed with the idea of getting a colt first, but it seems a little overkill if I just want to have something as a range/target shooter. Honestly haven't looked into the accuracy of a colt at all. The only range near me is 100yds, though I think there is a 300yd range within 30 miles. It would solve my ammo dilemma but also costs 2x more than a bolt and would still need optics.

I don't know how accurate .223 is out of a 5.56 barrel, so all in all maybe it would be better if I just skip the 5.56 idea and drop down to .223.
You are just learning about this. The difference in 223 and 556 is the throat as described above. If you sit a 223 and a 556 cartridge side by side they are identical. It is the amount of powder inside that is different.

The twist rate of the barrel is what you need to decide. 1 in 7 is what I have for 60 grain bullets and heavier. 1 in 9 is what I have for 55 grain up to around 65 grain. My cousin has a 1 in 12 for the lightest bullets and it is very inaccurate when it shoots 62 grain bullets, they key hole the target.

Good luck, and there are other calibers, like the .243 which is a good general purpose cartridge.
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Old July 30, 2013, 04:53 PM   #43
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Will a 1/7 be less accurate with lighter rounds then?
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Old July 30, 2013, 05:09 PM   #44
sirgilligan
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The twist rate is the rate at which the bullet spins.
1 in 7 means that in 7 inches of a barrel with rifling the bullet will turn one time.
1 in 12 means that in 12 inches the bullet will turn one time.

Thus 1 in 7 is faster than 1 in 12.

In .223 / 5.56 the heavier the bullet the faster twist is needed to stabilize the bullet.

When my cousin shot the heavy bullets out of is 1:12 twist bolt action the bullets were not stable and when they arrived at the target they hit the target sideways (making what is known as a keyhole in the target).

I have some 35 grain .223 ammo I am going to shoot through my 1:7 5.56 rifle someday, haven't done it yet. I have been told that it will probably be inaccurate.

Following is just my opinion, but if you want a general purpose setup then go with a 1:9 twist.

Why don't you just get a nice .22LR bolt action rifle. It will be fun to shoot at 100 yards and more. If you are just shooting for fun and don't have a spotting scope then shooting past 50 yards gets to be too much work. You shoot some, walk 100 yards and look at your target, and if you are at a range you have to wait for others, but shooting at 25 - 50 yards with a 22 long rifle is excellent fun.
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Old August 3, 2013, 11:13 PM   #45
sirgilligan
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Finally I found one and bought it.

The long search has ended!









CZ 527 Varmint
5.56 NATO
1 in 9 twist
Set Trigger
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