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Old July 14, 2013, 11:03 PM   #126
Nanuk
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If the .355 9mm slug expands to .63 and penetrates the required 12 inches from a 3inch barrel then why subject yourself to the noise and recoil of the .355 357 sig that expands to .63 and expands the required 12 inches.
Because one hits @ 1100 FPS and the other @ 1450 FPS or so, That is a lot of energy. I for for one believe that if everything else is equal the one that hits harder wins. I have seen a lot of people shot with a lot of different rounds and high energy rounds were always more dramatic in terminal effect.
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Old July 15, 2013, 06:11 AM   #127
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"rhetorical question" defined

If I launch my .355" bullet at the same velocity regardless of cartridge case, should I simply choose the cartridge case that allows me the most rds in the magazine?




'Cause I can talk all day long about the differences between 38 Special vs 357 Magnum.
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Old July 15, 2013, 04:27 PM   #128
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If I launch my .355" bullet at the same velocity regardless of cartridge case, should I simply choose the cartridge case that allows me the most rds in the magazine?
Thats why I got rid of all my 357SIG's, and now have 9mm's.

A nice side effect from doing so is, cheaper ammo and reloading components. I get to shoot a lot more for the money.
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Old July 15, 2013, 05:42 PM   #129
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Do not make the mistake of thinking more rounds in a weapon will somehow increase your safety for:

Spray-n-pray does not work.

Machinegunning your opponent does not work.

Having a zillion rounds is meaningless.

It is good powerful hits, from the first shot to the last, that are important.

Carry the most powerful gun you can shoot well AND conceal with your everyday cloths. And by shooting well I mean being able to control it fast, one handed, at reasonable SD ranges.

Deaf
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Old July 15, 2013, 06:06 PM   #130
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Spray-n-pray does not work.
I dont, but I guess those who need to justify their choices need to keep saying it. It was an old cliche back when Cooper was beating it to death. Its still old.

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Machinegunning your opponent does not work.
Id like to hear the reason why here.

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Having a zillion rounds is meaningless.
Having one round less than needed, tends to have some meaning. Or at least I think so.

I wont fault you for not having enough along, as long as you dont expect me to bail you out if you dont.

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It is good powerful hits, from the first shot to the last, that are important.
Absolutely, and applied until the problem is solved, and any other threats that may be around are solved as well.

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Carry the most powerful gun you can shoot well AND conceal with your everyday cloths. And by shooting well I mean being able to control it fast, one handed, at reasonable SD ranges.
Absolutely.

Ive carried full sized handguns concealed in street clothes, 18+ hours a day, everyday, most of my adult life, as well as a double reload and often a second gun. Carrying them isnt a problem, constant practice solves the other issue.

I was a Cooper child back when he was still learning. I swore by a .45acp 1911, mostly Colt Commanders, for 25+ years, until I saw things changing and degrading in the 1911 world. Switched to SIG P220's and related models, and then to SIG 357SIG's, P226's, P229's, P239's, and swore they were the Hammer of Todd as well, until I started digging deeper, and talking to the people who load the ammo and what the facts were. Now I carry pretty much nothing but a Glock 17 and 26, usually together, in place of the others. Until Todd comes up with a better hammer, these will do.

By all means use what you shoot best with, regardless of caliber. Just dont caught up in a lot of the hype, without doing your own digging and homework. Dont be surprised, if you dont find much real difference in real world comparisons these days.
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Old July 16, 2013, 12:02 AM   #131
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If I launch my .355" bullet at the same velocity regardless of cartridge case, should I simply choose the cartridge case that allows me the most rds in the magazine?
You are talking the difference in 364 FPE +/- VS 600 FPE +/- That is quite significant considering the bullets are almost identical weight, though the design differs allowing for performance at the higher velocity. If you cannot solve the problem with 14 rounds of 357 then 16 rounds of 9mm are not the answer. What you are doing is called rationalization, it is an informal fallacy of reasoning.
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Old July 16, 2013, 12:45 AM   #132
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They won't quit making this gun but like some calibers that are no so big , you can't hardly find ammo for them.
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Old July 16, 2013, 02:37 PM   #133
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Id like to hear the reason why here.
Machingunning your opponent a) runs you out of ammo, b) endangers everyone else as the probability of rounds that miss their target increases, c) if there is more than one opponent what do you think the other guy is gonna be doing while you are doing this? And d) in the time it takes to 'machinegun' someone you could have made fewer but more accurate hits. And it's hits that count, good and powerful hits.

And Jeff Cooper is the very one who opined against machinegunning as such.

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Old July 16, 2013, 04:55 PM   #134
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One more round or so in the "burst", isnt big deal if you have enough on board ammo, even with multiple opponents. If your carrying a five shot or single stack, it doesnt work so well.

You use it appropriately if you have to deal with more than one active opponent, its just one of those things you have to decide as you go. Nothing is written in stone.

If you practice shooting in bursts, good, accurate hits are a non issue, even when moving. Of course, like anything else, its the practice that makes the shooter.

Now I understand if youre using an caliber that is harder to shoot quickly with, shooting well quickly can be more of an issue. You can only shoot as fast as you can shoot well, else it does become "spray and pray".

Having shot a considerable amount of the major calibers over the years, I know I put more rounds on target faster with my 9mm's, than I do my .45's, and accuracy is not an issue. I can also do it longer before I have to reload too. A good hit with any of them, is a good hit. Then again, there really is no such thing as a "bad hit" as long as its not you getting hit.

Knowing that most targets dont stand still, nor does the shooter, and realizing that those "perfect" groups arent always going to happen like they do on the static range, more rounds on target quickly help to increase the odds in your favor.

That combination of more, lighter recoiling rounds, gives you more options, and more options is a good thing. I havent regretted in the least, leaving the .45's and a couple of others, in the safe. As an added bonus, the reduced cost of reloading for the 9mm, has increased the amount of shooting I do weekly.

As far as Cooper goes, while hes one of the ones who got things going, things move on and progress. He always had his prejudices, and many "followers" seemed to absorb them, and still cling to them. Some former fans, including some former Gunsite instructors, have continued on to grow and learn, where I think Cooper started to stagnate.

Times change, techniques and equipment change, and some of us embrace that. Some of us dont. Hey, do what works for you.
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Old July 17, 2013, 10:34 PM   #135
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I'd like to hear from machine gunned opponents who say that machinegunning your opponent does not work.
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Old July 17, 2013, 10:50 PM   #136
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It certainly isn't acceptable in the civilian defense world so its really not at all relevant to this discussion.
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Old July 18, 2013, 04:39 PM   #137
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I'd like to hear from machine gunned opponents who say that machinegunning your opponent does not work.
Several years ago a cop did double taps on three attackers. He only got to the second one when the third one nailed him.

Granted a double tap ain't a 'machineguning' but same outcome and for the same reason.

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Old July 18, 2013, 05:50 PM   #138
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Granted a double tap ain't a 'machineguning' but same outcome and for the same reason.
The situation dictates the need. Nothing is written in stone. Generally though, doctrine has been a double tap for a long time now, regardless the caliber, and unless you do practice different scenarios on a regular basis, youre likely to default to what you do "all the time" in practice.

Quote:
It certainly isn't acceptable in the civilian defense world so its really not at all relevant to this discussion.
I understand we've wandered here a little, so Ill leave it at this. I dont understand how anything you do to win the fight, is considered unacceptable, or irrelivent. If they warrant being shot once, or twice, they warrant being shot to slide lock, "if" thats what it takes to get them to the ground.

The problem here with the handgun caliber wars is, they all suck, most people dont practice even remotely realistically, and they also seem to think their caliber of choice, especially the supposed more "powerful" calibers, will drop an elephant with one shot, no matter where you hit them, so why could they possibly need more than one or two?

I dont care what caliber you use, if you shoot them, and they arent going down, you keep moving and keep shooting them, in any order you deem necessary, driven by the situation.
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Old July 18, 2013, 08:15 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
Several years ago a cop did double taps on three attackers. He only got to the second one when the third one nailed him.

Granted a double tap ain't a 'machineguning' but same outcome and for the same reason.

Deaf
The general rule is that everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Exceptions, of course, but that obviously shouldn't have been one of them.

AK103K,

The issue isn't so much "what you do to your opponent". The issue is "machine gunning", which certainly doesn't imply anything controlled in any typical SD role. Double tap, Mozambique drills, sure. We don't "machine gun" our attackers.
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Old July 18, 2013, 08:45 PM   #140
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So this is simply a matter of the "term" being offensive then?

From what Im getting from what youre saying, this is more about being PC than winning the fight.

Self defense is sort of a misnomer too. Once the fight starts, there is nothing defensive about it.

Does it really matter if you put two in the chest, two in the chest, and one in the head, or three or four in the chest? I really dont see your point here. The act is the same.
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Old July 18, 2013, 08:52 PM   #141
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What I'm saying is to stop talking about "machine gunning". Period.

It's neither on topic nor a term of common use nor a SD strategy.
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Old July 18, 2013, 09:38 PM   #142
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The general rule is that everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds. Exceptions, of course, but that obviously shouldn't have been one of them.
Ah yes, boarding house rules.

But as you know there are trainers who promote 'shooting them to the ground', which is you-know-what.

Deaf
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Old March 17, 2014, 01:36 PM   #143
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Deaf Smith posted:

I suspect the .357 Sig expands to the .63 call earlier, after impact, than the 9mm and thus does more damage. Yes same penetration but more volume of damage for that amount of penetration.

And I'm not sure the rounds I specified for the .357 Sig give just 12 inches of penetration either.

And adding 10 to 20 percent more velocity and about 25 percent more energy, with the same excellent bullet construction is not a bad thing.

The catch is one has to decide how much clout .vs. control they can balance. Some may not be able to handle a .357 Sig from a such small package as a Shield. My Glock 33 is within my capabilities shooting fast one handed. For some people though it may be to much for them.

Deaf
I did some waterjug tests this past weekend with 9mm out of my SIG P226, 40 S&W and SIG 357 out of my SIG P229 DAK SAS, and various handloads I rolled-up out of my S&W 686-6 in both 38+P and 357 Mag.

As expected, various results with the various loads and manufacturers and pill types ... but I can absolutely declare here that the SIG 357 Winchester Ranger-T was the most impressive in terms of expansion. Perfect talons, perfect uniform expansion, just beautiful. 3 jug penetration, which was the least of those mentioned above, but with the expansion it gave I don't mind the over-penetration issues.

I'll have to take pictures and share them.
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Old March 17, 2014, 02:15 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
... I suspect the .357 Sig expands to the .63 call earlier, after impact, than the 9mm and thus does more damage. Yes same penetration but more volume of damage for that amount of penetration. ...
In most cases, earlier expansion is exactly what you get out of extra velocity/energy ... but at a cost of penetration, which is generally an inch or so less.

Since you still get +12" of penetration, so no big whoop, and it can be said that you do indeed get a slightly better "something-or-other" with higher velocity rounds like .357sig. I'm not certain it's anything important, but it's measurable.

Whether that confers any real advantage owing to those factors, or a disadvantage owing to more recoil ... I think we're in the area of raw conjecture, YMMV and opinion at that point.

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Old March 17, 2014, 02:49 PM   #145
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From AK103k

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Ive carried full sized handguns concealed in street clothes, 18+ hours a day, everyday, most of my adult life, as well as a double reload and often a second gun. Carrying them isnt a problem, constant practice solves the other issue
24-18=6

Gotta respect a fella who's prepared and caffeinated.

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Old March 17, 2014, 02:52 PM   #146
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6 is a "good" night.
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Old March 17, 2014, 06:20 PM   #147
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As for advantage of one over the other I susbscriber to Jeff Cooper's advice.

Carry the largest round that you can control and conceal.

I find from the Glock sub-compacts the .357 Sig and .40 S&W are about it. Try to add more power and I can't control it one handed with any speed.

If I want more power... I go to a bigger gun!

Deaf
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Old March 17, 2014, 08:42 PM   #148
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As for advantage of one over the other I susbscriber to Jeff Cooper's advice.
While I have tremendous respect for everything Cooper did to advance handgun technique ...

... I'd be careful about any advice he gave on terminal ballistics. He simply revealed himself to know almost nothing about the subject. It's unfortunately the case that his well-deserved reputation in one sphere led people to believe that he was expert in the other.

In his defense, he was not alone in that respect. He was in the company of other notables like Julian Hatcher and John Taylor, who also regularly espoused opinions contrary to established laws of physics.

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Old March 17, 2014, 09:33 PM   #149
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Since you still get +12" of penetration, so no big whoop, and it can be said that you do indeed get a slightly better "something-or-other" with higher velocity rounds like .357sig. I'm not certain it's anything important, but it's measurable.

Whether that confers any real advantage owing to those factors, or a disadvantage owing to more recoil ... I think we're in the area of raw conjecture, YMMV and opinion at that point.
I will take ANY advantage I can get. My Glock 31C is the lightest recoiling gun I own bigger than a 22LR.
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Old March 17, 2014, 10:31 PM   #150
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zombietactics,

Well it's not about ballistics per see.

Ayoob and others have found that yes the more powerful guns do TEND to stop better. And the better shaped and designed bullets TEND to do better. And shot placement does TEND to make a difference.

And that is why I take Cooper's advice.

And yes, I do remember him saying GI .45 ball was a 95 percent stopper (19 out of 20.)

I considered that gospel till I shot a rabbit with FMJ .45 ball and the bunny ran off a distance before I shot him again.

Deaf
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