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Old July 14, 2013, 12:05 PM   #1
Josh Smith
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Concept/Prototype Rear Mosin Peep -- Thoughts?

Hi Folks,

The first concept of this sight was posted on a few boards only. I wanted to see if the concept seemed sound to most folks and was therefore worth pursuing.

Moving on, this is Prototype II:











Very tough construction. It's just a little high and I'll fix that.

Some just want it mounted on the rear sight, no cantilever. I've got a couple ideas in mind for this, too. There won't be nearly as much hand-fitting, either.

Problem with one mounted directly to the rear sight, however, is simply that it defeats a lot of the rear peep sight concept. It will only make aiming easier than but not necessarily more precise than the original leaf rear.

The next iteration will likely have the rear peep lowered and it and the rear screw will change places.

Thoughts?

Thank you,

Josh
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Old July 14, 2013, 12:14 PM   #2
tahunua001
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do those bolts extend into the receiver or is that just a riser plate for the peep? I like it, if you paired that with your fine tip fronts I would imagine that it would help tighten up groups on a mosin.


one thing I would like to suggest, is all blued, that way it kindof blends in with the rest of the rifle and doesn't look like someone jsut slapped it on their gun.
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Old July 14, 2013, 12:35 PM   #3
Josh Smith
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Hello,

The screws are only on the cantilever off the sight base. Nothing is drilled and tapped.

The silverish material is aluminum, and I thought that perhaps, highly polished, it would add a flair to the rifle, but I could be mistaken. My tastes run strangely.

Regards,

Josh
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Old July 14, 2013, 05:41 PM   #4
tahunua001
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different strokes for different folks. the lack of D&T adds the value of being a reversible modification should a person not want to hurt collectablilty.

I'm sure some like the flashier looks, I just like the classic blued look and this is just personal aesthetics but if I have multiple metal hues on my guns I just feel like it's been cobbled together whereas everything matching makes it look more professionally done.

does the new rear allow windage adjustment in addition to elevation? it would be nice to pick my zero and dual it in without having to bring a punch and hammer along.
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Old July 15, 2013, 12:46 PM   #5
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A buddy of mine has been playing with adding a peep to the cocking piece of a Mosin for greater sight radius.



His full article is here. It's something else to consider.
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Old July 15, 2013, 07:45 PM   #6
tahunua001
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one would think that the cocking piece would be a bad idea. for one, that's the safety so there is lots of rotational movement plus depending on how loose/tight the bolt fits in the first place there can be quite a bit of lateral movement as well.
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Old July 16, 2013, 04:01 PM   #7
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A rear peep , that far forward isn't going to be the cat's pajamas for sure . It's not only a matter of the sight radius , but the ability to see through it in low light conditions ! Might work for mid day , but useless during the "Golden Hour" of hunting . Have you tried it in low light conditions , on a target that isn't White ?
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Old July 16, 2013, 04:41 PM   #8
Chad.C
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That looks nice i would get one
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Old July 16, 2013, 09:05 PM   #9
tahunua001
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Quote:
A rear peep , that far forward isn't going to be the cat's pajamas for sure . It's not only a matter of the sight radius , but the ability to see through it in low light conditions ! Might work for mid day , but useless during the "Golden Hour" of hunting . Have you tried it in low light conditions , on a target that isn't White ?
this is very apparent with the type 99 arisaka where the japanese knew that the world was switching from mauser style leafs to peeps but they didn't know enough to move the peep closer to the shooters face to the end effect is actually worse than the sight it replaced. however I can see that josh took that into account and does manage to move the peep a good 6-8 inches closer to the shooters face than it would be if he just mounted straight to the rear sight block. I also think that that peep is one of the ones that unscrews for low light, I've seen similar sights on muzzle loaders and acted that way.
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Old July 17, 2013, 01:39 PM   #10
Josh Smith
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The rear cocking piece peep sight is one I marketed at a time. It may or may not come back. I might combine elements of this sight with the original rear I was making.

I hesitate to post these pictures as they are watermarked and I'm not an advertiser, but since I'm not selling these right now I think it's OK, ethically:













PawPaw, your friend is going to have a rough time. You must stabilize on the X, Y, and Z axis, and this means stabilizing points, one of which must consist of a spring-loaded ball bearing as their is a slight narrowing on the rear bridge of the Mosin and any solid piece used to stabilize windage will catch up in that narrowing.

Further, the spring tension must be enough not to slow down the lock time to any appreciable degree.

This all translates into some very tricky hand-fitting of parts. Very labor-intensive and more complex than it looks on the surface.

My second version of the above sight had the peep placed slightly more forward, but not appreciably so.

The complexity of the rear Rigby-style sight is the reason I'm looking for something simpler to make. However, if it cannot be at least as effective as the Rigby-style, then I'll not make it and will go back to the Rigby-style after catching up on previous orders.

In other words, the rear peep must be at least as effective as what I sold previously. If this turns out not to be as effective, then it's back to the modified version of the above pictured design.

Regards,

Josh
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Old July 18, 2013, 09:13 AM   #11
PetahW
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.

FWIW, while I admire the effort, Williams Gun Sight Co has long made a peep sight that replaces the military rear sight spring/blade, etc, that's W/E adj - the $24 Model WM-96 Peep.


I've used the WM-96 Peep, modified via drilling a vertical hole through the forward end of the tongue (usually hinged/pinned under the military sight's forward crosspin), on Henry leverguns as a minimalist peep sight.

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Old July 18, 2013, 10:49 PM   #12
tahunua001
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petahw,
those sights are drill and tap application, non reversible modification to the weapon which a lot of people don't like to do with 50 year old guns.


EDIT:
I just went through every list for williams peep sights and they dont have a single model compatible with the mosin nagant in the first place. seems like Josh is the only game in town.
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Old July 19, 2013, 10:05 AM   #13
PetahW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahunua001

petahw,
those sights are drill and tap application, non reversible modification to the weapon which a lot of people don't like to do with 50 year old guns.

Both the Williams Gun Sight Co, and I, respectfully beg to differ.

I've used them in several different apps, both on military & commercial rifles - they are only a D/T application if D/T is req'd for attachment on a particular rifle (for which the issue Williams sight must also be modified).

The Williams WM-96 Peep is made as a drop-in replacement for the military rear barrel sight blade/spring, etc - the front tongue of the WM-96 hooking under the military sight base's forward pivot pin for the original military sight leaf.

This "no-gunsmithing" Peepsight is installed via simply removing the military sight's forward crosspin, removing the old sight blade - replacing it with the WM-96 - and reinstalling the crosspin prior to zeroing.

Click on this link to the Williams catalog & scroll to page 9 for the military sights, including the WM-96 Peep on the lower RH corner of that page: http://www.williamsgunsight.com/guns..._Williams1.pdf

The Williams WSKS Peep (Arpeture) & WAK47 Peep (Aperture) sights are the same drop-in peep sight with a shorter forward tongue, to fit the military sight base of those particular rifles.



.

Last edited by PetahW; July 19, 2013 at 10:18 AM.
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Old July 19, 2013, 02:32 PM   #14
seanc
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I like the Williams sights and used them for my SKS, but I went with Mojo sights for my M44. Peep in the back and front aperture:

http://www.mojosights.com/mosin_nagant.html

I like what you made there, Josh. I recall seeing a much cruder version like that about 20 years ago just using a fine threaded sling mount stud. I've been tempted to do that, but I'm pretty happy with the Mojo sights now that I've painted the inside of the front aperture with white paint for contrast.

Per the OP: I agree with tahunua001's original post. Good idea, it would just look better without a two-tone look.
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Old July 19, 2013, 11:13 PM   #15
tahunua001
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PetahW,
williams sights are not compatible with the mosin nagant. the WM96 specifically is only designed for mauser style leafs and the mosin does not use those types of sights.

also as it's already been pointed out, a peep that far from the shooters eye is more detrimental than the leafs they replace. the sights the OP is designing move the peep closer to the shooters eye, improving sight picture, increasing sight radius and doing a better overall job than the Williams style sights that just replace the leafs but keep the peep too far away from the shooter's eye to do any good.
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Old July 20, 2013, 09:37 AM   #16
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Sights should not be installed on a movable object like a bolt. Just way too much movement involved. Something on the order of the first post would work. You might try mounting a peep sight on one of those inexpensive scope mounts that they make for the mosin. If I were to install one, I would get a bolt with a bent handle and mount the peep as far back as I could. The peep should be a lot more solid than a scope on one of those mounts. Be sure to get an adjustable peep sight.
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Old July 20, 2013, 01:30 PM   #17
tahunua001
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the ati mounts are pretty much garbage. I bought one for my M91/30 and it needs a shim(not included) to actually make it a level surface to mount something. they also mount so low that the only bent bolt that works with them is the ATI bolt that requires you to chop the handle off your bolt, drill and tap the bolt and actually bolt the handle one with a single screw, a setup that lasted me approximately 3 rounds. I had to JBweld the POS to the bolt body. such a setup pretty much destroys any value the rifle once had. others like the rock solid mount might work better but even they D&T the receiver and permanently alter it, this one is completely reversible.
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Old July 21, 2013, 09:36 PM   #18
Jim Watson
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Cocking piece sights for bolt actions were once fairly common.
The added sight radius and eye centering of the peep outweighed a LITTLE slop. A nice sporter didn't have much slop. Some were made to provide alignment of the cocking piece which Josh shows.

There were also receiver sights with pivoting arms to let the bolt handle in MN and MS split bridge actions pass by.

Uber deluxe European sporters even had tang sights that laid down into the tang as the bolt came back.

If Czarist and Soviet surplus is getting so uncommon that you don't want to drill and tap it for improved sights, that is another problem.
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