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Old July 15, 2013, 01:13 PM   #1
MLeake
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Tampa Bay Times cross-reference of Stand Your Ground cases to date in Florida

I haven't had time to search through this yet, but it looks potentially interesting; it's the only comprehensive database I've found, so far, with regard to Stand Your Ground cases.

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-g...aw/fatal-cases

On surface skimming of it, I noted that of the 133 cases for which the paper had charge and trial data, there were 39 convictions.

I'll need to verify, but it seems to me that would suggest that when Stand Your Ground has been improperly claimed, the Justice system has worked properly. In other words, Stand Your Ground isn't a Get out of Jail Free card, if the case is not a good one.

This makes me wonder, yet again, why SYG has so many strident opponents.
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Old July 15, 2013, 02:08 PM   #2
speedrrracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
of the 133 cases for which the paper had charge and trial data, there were 39 convictions.
FYI, your link claims 40 convictions, 73 justified...maybe one conviction just happened...

How will you assess "improperly claimed"?
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Old July 15, 2013, 02:15 PM   #3
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I'll need to verify, but it seems to me that would suggest that when Stand Your Ground has been improperly claimed, the Justice system has worked properly.
In the absence of an abstract or actual paper, it's hard to break down. An interactive website is good for looking into individual incidents, but it's terrible for getting an aggregate of data.
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Old July 15, 2013, 05:52 PM   #4
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SYG has so many opponents because they have no idea what it really means. They think it's a license to kill. It's true value is to remove the burden of proof that you could have retreated if you had the opportunity. Said opportunity looking far different to someone the next morning who wasn't there.

The Trial had nothing to do with SYG and yet people are still arguing over SYG. If you can retreat safely, you should; who needs all the grief of shooting someone? Of course if someone is on top of you it's kind of hard to retreat.
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Old July 15, 2013, 05:56 PM   #5
KyJim
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This makes me wonder, yet again, why SYG has so many strident opponents.
I have wondered that, as well. The general rule in most of the U.S. for much its history has been SYG. In 1895, the first Justice Harlan Stone summed it up in a SCOTUS opinion:
Quote:
[I]f the accused did not provoke the assault, and had at the time reasonable grounds to believe, and in good faith believed, that the deceased intended to take his life, or do him great bodily harm, he was not obliged to retreat, nor to consider whether he could safely retreat, but was entitled to stand his ground, and meet any attack made upon him with a deadly weapon, in such way and with such force as, under all the circumstances, he, at the moment, honestly believed, and had reasonable grounds to believe, were necessary to save his own life, or to protect himself from great bodily injury.
Beard v. United States, 158 U.S. 550, 564, 15 S. Ct. 962, 967, 39 L. Ed. 1086 (1895). Somewhere over the years, part of the Country lost sight of this.
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Old July 15, 2013, 06:20 PM   #6
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Again, they do not understand what it really means, nor do they really have a feeling for how quickly you have to decide what to do. People not in the situation think you have all day to debate the pros and cons of what you should do to plan and then execute your safe retreat. In reality you have a split second while your pulse is racing, adrenaline is surging, and your scared out of your wits.

Those people will freeze and die when the time comes.
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Old July 15, 2013, 07:20 PM   #7
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Those people will freeze and die when the time comes.
But on the upside they won't face State charges, FBI, DOJ, civil lawsuit, Militant Thugs....et al.
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Old July 15, 2013, 07:51 PM   #8
Tom Servo
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Jim, thanks for the citation.

Tactical issues are best left to the appropriate subforum, and we're not doing a rehash of the Zimmerman matter. Full stop.
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Old July 15, 2013, 08:15 PM   #9
KyJim
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You're welcome.
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Old July 15, 2013, 08:52 PM   #10
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There's a huge problem with the Tampa Bay Times information. It lists the Zimmerman/Martin case as SYG, which it was not. Knowing that case is incorrectly listed, it makes all the rest of the info suspect.
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Old July 15, 2013, 09:42 PM   #11
speedrrracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorhead
There's a huge problem with the Tampa Bay Times information. It lists the Zimmerman/Martin case as SYG, which it was not. Knowing that case is incorrectly listed, it makes all the rest of the info suspect.
Great observation, motorhead, thanks for the heads-up.
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Old July 16, 2013, 10:33 AM   #12
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All I read was the first case...

It was about two guys shooting at each other over an alleged drug deal, and sadly a little girl got caught in the crossfire...

How exactly does this have anything to do with 'Stand Your Ground'?

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Old July 16, 2013, 10:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
All I read was the first case...

It was about two guys shooting at each other over an alleged drug deal, and sadly a little girl got caught in the crossfire...

How exactly does this have anything to do with 'Stand Your Ground'?
I think that is an example of where "stand your ground" was asserted by the defense, even though the actions of the defendant clearly show it to be ludicrously misapplied.
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Old July 16, 2013, 12:40 PM   #14
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I think you're right, csmsss. These appear to be SYG pleas, not judgments.
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Old July 16, 2013, 12:57 PM   #15
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^^^ +2 Tom and csmss.

I read several of the cases yesterday, and IIRC there are several in which Persons A & B fought or threatened one another, Person A left the scene and returned with a weapon, and subsequently used it against Person B. In each case, Person A was found guilty or plead- IMHO rightly so, as a SYG defense is clearly inappropriate in these cases, regardless of who initiated the first confrontation (e.g. Joel Kun-Steve Clair incident, upper middle RH side of page).
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Old July 16, 2013, 01:14 PM   #16
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A lot of stabbings are included in that data as well. Also many of these cases involve defense in the home...very misleading until you actually read a lot of the cases.
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Old July 16, 2013, 05:16 PM   #17
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If it's posted in the TBT it is not for the benefit of gun owners. They are an anti supporter.
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Old July 17, 2013, 07:21 AM   #18
Patriot86
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http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/bl...rtionate-rate/

Not exactly a "fair and balanced" source but it seems to be backed up by the Tampa Bay Times database.
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Old July 17, 2013, 09:08 AM   #19
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Thanks for the link, Patriot. Interesting article.
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Old July 17, 2013, 10:33 AM   #20
Don P
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Just on the news, how the DOJ and possible proceedings may effect our stand your ground law here in FLA. Interesting being SD was used and NOT stand your ground
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