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Old July 7, 2013, 09:25 AM   #2751
Tom Servo
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Yep, and Jacob Montelongo, the guy who purchased that and 109 other lost F&F weapons, was only sentenced to 41 months in prison.

As it stands, there are at least 170 deaths tied to Fast & Furious, yet none of the parties involved in planning or executing it have been prosecuted.
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Old July 7, 2013, 10:53 AM   #2752
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Quote:
As it stands, there are at least 170 deaths tied to Fast & Furious, yet none of the parties involved in planning or executing it have been prosecuted.
Nor will they ever. Yet the same DoJ will spend untold millions chasing down the one person who had the courage to step forward and reveal that our government is tracking each and every electronic communication each of us generates.
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Old July 7, 2013, 02:50 PM   #2753
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Funny I can remember telling people that all this stuff was being tracked... I didn't need to spill secrets, all I had to do was read the law and understand how our government thinks.

The scary part is our leaders in general don't seem to think that such invasions of rights are a problem and we've hobbled ourselves with thinking only the SCOTUS can strike laws... We only need to look to our own history to see that awareness has to be brought house to house, neighbor to neighbor to change the laws.

I still think its odd that anyone though some of this stuff was secret, read the law, interpret it in they way that most benefits whatever agency and that the new limits of its power... The action it takes will be defined by those limits.
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Old July 7, 2013, 05:53 PM   #2754
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Quote:
Funny I can remember telling people that all this stuff was being tracked.
Are you referring to the national tracing system? If so, that's not really news.
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Old July 7, 2013, 09:47 PM   #2755
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Re: ATF Project Gunrunner

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGutzman View Post
Funny I can remember telling people that all this stuff was being tracked...
And their reaction was? Prior to these leaks a significant number of people probably thought you were some sort of conspiracy nut. Imagine telling people 10 years ago that the President had a secret kill list and that he considered consultations with his advisors to be "due process".
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Old July 7, 2013, 10:06 PM   #2756
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What strikes me as funny, spelled peculiar, is the following.

While lately, all manner of people have become aware and are complaining about "government" sticking it's nose into what used to be individual privacy, and the rights thereto, seems like nobody notes or mentions the fact that Corporate America, the Private Sector is doing essentially the same thing, aided and comforted by the same people who complain about the antics of government.

Like I said, it strikes me as being funny, spelled peculiar, but then any number of people have found me funny, spelled peculiar too.
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Old July 7, 2013, 10:10 PM   #2757
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Re: ATF Project Gunrunner

Alan:
Let me know when I can choose not to do business with the government. That, and the fact that the "corporation" is a government creation.
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Old July 8, 2013, 04:23 PM   #2758
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nazshooter wrote in response to my post:

Alan:
Let me know when I can choose not to do business with the government. That, and the fact that the "corporation" is a government creation.

Nazshooter:

In answer to your question(s), please note the following.

1. "corporations" are most certainly, creatures of the government, The Congress being part of government, The Congress (House and Senate) having enacted various laws and statutes, as well as authorizing the "promulgation of regulations ...".

2. Among others, Facebook is a corporation. I have no idea concerning whether or not you have a Facebook page, if you do, you freely so choose to. While the individual's choices might be limited, the individual is not without choices, at least not yet.
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Old July 8, 2013, 05:23 PM   #2759
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We're getting off topic here. Government surveillance and the definition of "corporation" aren't the subject of this thread.
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Old July 8, 2013, 11:28 PM   #2760
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Tom Servo:

I believe the following from JPFO is back on track, re the subject of this thread.

There was an article in my local paper, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, picked up from the Los Angeles Times I believe, that covered this shooting and it's background, including references to Operation Fast & Furious.

Quote:
JPFO - Consequences: Police chief killed with rifle lost in ATF gun-tracking program


CONSEQUENCES
July 8th 2013
Police chief killed with
rifle lost in ATF
gun-tracking program


US Government facilitates murder weapon of
police chief, but wants to register yours.
"Police chief killed with rifle lost in ATF gun-tracking program"
By Richard A. Serrano, July 5th, 2013
Article Source

Luis Lucio Rosales Astorga, the police chief in the city of Hostotipaquillo, was shot to death Jan. 29 when gunmen intercepted his patrol car and opened fire. Also killed was one of his bodyguards. His wife and a second bodyguard were wounded. . . .
Copyright © 2013 JPFO.ORG, All rights reserved. http://jpfo.org/
Our mailing address is: jpfo@jpfo.org
P.O. Box 270143, Hartford, WI 53027, USA
P.O. Box 270143,Hartford ,WI 53027, USA

Last edited by Spats McGee; July 9, 2013 at 08:54 AM. Reason: Bringing into line with copyrighted material policy
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Old July 16, 2013, 01:00 PM   #2761
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I'd like to go back to the Contempt of Congress citation of Holder that DoJ has refused to act upon. I'm curious whether it would be possible for an application for mandamus to be filed to force DoJ to prosecute this indictment? If so, would it have to be the House committee that files or could a third party file?
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Old July 16, 2013, 08:49 PM   #2762
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In March, 2013 the judge ordered mediation. This Fast and Furious mediation could drag on for many months or even years.

Quote:
U.S. District Judge Amy Berman Jackson referred the matter to Barbara Rothstein, saying both parties should contact her office “promptly” for instructions and a schedule. A new status report will be due April 22, and the April 24 hearing will go on as scheduled unless a settlement is reached. On Monday, Rothstein scheduled a meeting at 10 a.m. March 26 to begn the process. She also ordered both sides to deliver by Friday memos outlining the status of a potential settlement.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-...pt-159615.html
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Old July 16, 2013, 08:51 PM   #2763
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Despicable act on the part of the judge, who is essentially killing the indictment by proxy.
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Old July 16, 2013, 10:58 PM   #2764
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I've been wrong before, and I could be wrong here, with respect to the following.

That having been said, from where I sit, I doubt that ANY branch of government can be relied on to ever get to the bottom of the criminal fiasco that was Operation Fast and Furious, certainly no part of government under the present administration.

When I mention "getting to the bottom" I refer to actually taking a cold, hard look at those who dreamed up and operated this scheme, and acting to "bring to justice" those at fault, via prosecution. It won't happen, if for no other reason than the number of "rice bowls" involved, all of which would be upset.

For whatever it might be worth, that is my take on this sad affair, and here I make mention of just one of the games being played.
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Old July 17, 2013, 07:59 AM   #2765
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btw...Judge Jackson is an Obama appointee.
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Old July 17, 2013, 08:16 AM   #2766
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We know who ginned up and ran Fast and Furious. Grassley and Issa tried to prove that Holder knew of and blessed the deal: They failed.

IMO: Issa was doing a very thorough investigation of Fast and Furious. The contempt citation ended the investigation. Holder played a high stakes game of chicken and won.

Issa was an Army student at EOD school while i was an Army instructor there in 70-72. I do not remember him.
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Old July 17, 2013, 08:25 AM   #2767
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Quote:
We know who ginned up and ran Fast and Furious. Grassley and Issa tried to prove that Holder knew of and blessed the deal: They failed.
They failed because Holder illegally refused to provide the documents under subpoena, not because Holder had no involvement in F&F. Since these documents are crucial to proving Holder & potential White House involvement in and direction of F&F, what else was the House to do? Keep asking politely?

Quote:
IMO: Issa was doing a very thorough investigation of Fast and Furious. The contempt citation ended the investigation. Holder played a high stakes game of chicken and won.
You speak of it as if it's were a game. This is an important separation of powers and oversight issue and speaking of it as a simple game of bluff is disingenuous and false. You can argue the tactics of the committee and the House all you want, but at the end of the day you have the AG of the United States breaking laws and laughing in the face of the citizens of the United States.
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Old July 17, 2013, 09:11 AM   #2768
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Quote:
You speak of it as if it's were a game.
From Holder's point of view it was a game, simple as that.

Quote:
This is an important separation of powers and oversight issue and speaking of it as a simple game of bluff is disingenuous and false.
Yep, it is an important separation of powers issue, no doubt about that.

Grassley and Issa lost this one when they failed to go after the BATFE. The big losers are the citizens of Mexico, who were duped and betrayed by the Phoenix office of the BATFE, the US prosecutor for AZ and those up the food chain who blessed the operation.

At this late date Grassley and Issa could appeal that judge's decision. The fact that they have not indicates a congressional disinterest in F&F. F&F is dead in the water.
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Old July 17, 2013, 09:16 AM   #2769
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Quote:
They failed because Holder illegally refused to provide the documents under subpoena, not because Holder had no involvement in F&F. Since these documents are crucial to proving Holder & potential White House involvement in and direction of F&F, what else was the House to do? Keep asking politely?
They had 2 options: they could have arrested in themselves (the Sgt at Arms, accompanied by the Capitol Police) and thrown him in jail for civil contempt. Or they could have impeached him. The jail thing was probably the better option because the Senate democrats would not have upheld an impeachment. But of course instead they did nothing, because this was all just for show.
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Old August 15, 2013, 12:19 PM   #2770
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In case you missed it, CBS reporter Sharyl Attkinsson has done a follow-up story on Fast and Furious. More guns trafficked with the permission of ATF have turned up at crime scenes in Mexico:
Quote:
According to Justice Department tracing documents obtained by CBS News, all three guns are WASR-10 762-caliber Romanian rifles. Two were purchased by Fast and Furious suspect Uriel Patino in May and July of 2010. Sean Steward, who was convicted on gun charges in July 2012, purchased a third. The rifles were traced yesterday to the Lone Wolf gun shop in Glendale, Ariz.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...mes-in-mexico/

The story doesn't say whether there were any homicides involved. With the number of guns allowed to go South, I'm betting F&F guns will be showing up at crime scenes for a long time.
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Old August 16, 2013, 02:18 PM   #2771
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Concerning recent posts on F & F, and the fiasco's/ongoing dog and pony show that has followed, anyone interested might view my post # 2764. While others are likely better writers than I, the referenced post is, I submit, worth the brief moment required to read it.

In summation, might I add the following. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are, in my view, worth the matches it would take to set them alight, regarding the administration antics they have acquiesced to respecting the criminal fiasco that was and remains this thing called Operation Fast & Furious.

Lest I forget, media is culpable, blazingly so, for having, in general, soft-peddled, actually ignored Operation Fast & Furious, and the painfully obvious role of the Obama Administration therein. Rather than covering itself in glory, it has wallowed in administration produced you know what, to it's everlasting detriment, this last conclusion being my own, as I cannot speak for others. Think on this last for a moment. Had media spilled 1/10 the ink, despoiled an equivalent amount of newsprint, burned the amount of electricity need to properly broadcast questions, as they have done, and continue to do over the problems caused by "assault weapons", which aren't "assault weapons", I suspect that we would, long since, have gotten to the bottom of this screw-up, having seen appropriate punishment of those who merit such treatment. Alas, we have seen nothing of the sort, to the everlasting shame of media.

Last edited by alan; August 16, 2013 at 02:30 PM. Reason: the adding of a thought
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Old August 16, 2013, 04:35 PM   #2772
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Quote:
In summation, might I add the following. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are, in my view, worth the matches it would take to set them alight, regarding the administration antics they have acquiesced to respecting the criminal fiasco that was and remains this thing called Operation Fast & Furious.

i agree.

Unlike many, i'm not ready to blame the media for the failure of the investigation into Fast and Furious. Most of the people who blame CBS, NBC, ABC and CNN for their failure to cover Operation Fast and Furious steadfastly refuse to watch those networks and, therefore, have no idea what those networks cover. Fast and Furious was reported on regularily by all the major networks. The Fast and Furious story came to light because of an CBS reporter, Sharyl Attkisson.

One of the things that killed the investigation into F&F was the failure to demand the overhaul of the BATFE.

For months i read everything that came out of Issa's committee. Few, if any, of those reports ever mentioned Operation Wide Receiver. Wide Receiver was the pilot program for Fast and Furious. Contrary to popular belief, few of the Wide Receiver guns were tracked by the Mexicans or anyone else. At least 13 Wide Receiver guns were recovered at Mexican crime scenes.

Quote:
The prosecutor also found evidence that guns involved in Operation Wide Receiver were connected to crime scenes in Mexico. She wrote that “13of the purchased firearms have been recovered in Mexico in connection with crime scenes, including the April 2008 Tijuana gun battle” and that “[t]wo potential defendants were recently murdered in Mexico.”
See:

Email from Laura Gwinn, Criminal Division, Department of Justice, to Kevin
Carwile, Criminal Division, Department of Justice (Mar. 16, 2010).


The whole truth about Operation Fast and Furious will probably never be known. The House Oversight Committee don't have the stomach for it.

Many years ago i was the commander of a US Army EOD unit. i had my runin with a BATF SAC. The scurrilous cretin wanted me to tell a federal judge that i disposed of hundreds of thousands of small arms rounds confiscated illegally by the BATFE. The judge had ordered the ammunition returned to its owner and the BATF could not produce it.

i want that agency reformed.

Last edited by thallub; August 16, 2013 at 09:00 PM.
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Old August 16, 2013, 07:51 PM   #2773
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Did you tell the judge the agent tried to get you to lie? (and under oath, I presume.) That could have been really interesting to watch play out.
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Old August 16, 2013, 08:41 PM   #2774
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thallub,

1). Atkisson is with CBS, not ABC;

2). Until Atkisson's report, no major network or traditional news outlet had covered it, period. I tried to get the Atlanta Journal Constitution to look into it, but my emails to the editor went unanswered. After Atkisson's report, other networks finally started "covering" F&F, primarily by saying it was a continuation of the Bush administration's "Wide Receiver," which was false.

Your last post is simply inaccurate.
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Old August 16, 2013, 08:43 PM   #2775
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Quote:
Did you tell the judge the agent tried to get you to lie? (and under oath, I presume.)
The SAC wanted me to write a letter to the judge stating that i had destroyed nearly 500,000 rounds of ammunition seized illegally from a medical doctor. Yes, i wrote a letter to the judge; through Army channels. That may have entered into the judges decision to jail BATFE agents from that office for contempt of court.

There was a BATF internal investigation. i immediately rattled the investigator by accusing him of trying to cover up the entire affair. Turns out he was a decent guy who was only interested in the truth. The man told me the entire sorry story. Not only was the ammo missing, some of the 200 seized guns could not be accuounted for.
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