The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 12, 2013, 08:20 AM   #26
MrBorland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 1,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picher
Please don't extrapolate and try to debunk my relatively simple field-accuracy conditions theory based on target and benchrest shooting nuances...

..compare a .243 Win, at 3,200 fps to, say a .45-70 at 1,400 fps. Rifle movement, using improvised rests or offhand may result in larger deviations from sighting-in POI. As I said, this is only a theory.
And so, in theory, it seems lock time ought to be a bigger issue than dwell time for the same reason.

Dwell times for the above examples are in the area of a millisecond or less, whereas lock time on a regular ol' off-the-shelf AR is about 16 milliseconds. Even a hunting bolt rifle has a lock time (about 4 milliseconds) well in excess of the .243's dwell time.
MrBorland is offline  
Old July 12, 2013, 11:10 AM   #27
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,863
Good point MrBoland. That's one reason I like bolt-actions, very short lock-time, compared with many external-hammer rifles.
Picher is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 10:10 AM   #28
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,676
I really don't believe that lock time is as big an issue as many people think. An M98 Mauser will have a faster lock time than an AR-15. Heck, even with the Geisselle SSA trigger I have in my service rifle it only comes down to where a Mauser starts.

Doesn't mean my AR doesn't shoot very tight.

Accuracy comes from repeatability. Timing is a very small part of it, and easily overpowered by variabilities in ammunition.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 11:49 AM   #29
MrBorland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 1,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimro
Accuracy comes from repeatability. Timing is a very small part of it, and easily overpowered by variabilities in ammunition.
Yeah, that was part of the point I was trying to get to, Jimro. Lock time exceeds dwell time, and though AR competitors may install a speedier Geisselle trigger, for instance, I get the impression most will agree that repeatability is still the far bigger issue.
MrBorland is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 12:05 PM   #30
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 2,056
Quote:
Accuracy comes from repeatability.
Quote:
I get the impression most will agree that repeatability is still the far bigger issue.
I don't want to speak for the OP but it seems that is his point . He has stated that the shooter would be in different field conditions and using different stances and rest . That to me would make it hard to get repeatability . If that was the case I would want the bullet to leave the barrel as soon as posible .
Metal god is offline  
Old July 15, 2013, 08:53 AM   #31
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,676
Quote:
He has stated that the shooter would be in different field conditions and using different stances and rest . That to me would make it hard to get repeatability . If that was the case I would want the bullet to leave the barrel as soon as posible .
Precision is getting a tight group.

Accuracy is hitting where you are aiming.

It doesn't matter what the velocity of your rifle round is, if you practice from field positions (slung up, shooting sticks, prone supported, standing offhand) and know how your rifle hits from there (expect 1 MOA shifts between positions) then you will be accurate.

Bullet speed has nothing to do with that, it won't make up for a shaky hold or sloppy trigger work.

Think about it, a 30-30 that is well fitted to the hunter is going to be "a joy to shoot" even with iron sights. That 243 Win bolt action Rem or Savage with 26" barrel for max velocity and scope on top is going to shoulder differently, have a different cheek weld, and have a point of balance further out unless you add weight to the butt.

Wouldn't want that 243 in the woods, wouldn't want that 30-30 on a prairie dog hunt. I'd take the 30-30 for deer any day where I didn't know what shooting position I might end up in. If I was on my belly off of sandbags or a bipod hunting varmits, I'd take the 243.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old July 15, 2013, 09:27 AM   #32
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
It would seem to me that most folks would consider precision and accuracy to be the same thing in regards to rifle shooting.

One would assume that the firearm is sighted such that it groups around the point of aim, yes? Perhaps it shoots X high at Y range but that's still a known factor, yes?

Therefore, by any ordinary standard, a rifle that is imprecise is inaccurate... It doesn't hit where you want consistently. A rifle that's inaccurate is also imprecise, unless you haven't sighted it in, which makes it irrelevant.

Any other argument, for ordinary purposes, is pure esoterica. A distinction without a difference.

As for that .243 versus a 30-30... I'd be willing to bet that such rifles outnumber 30-30s in the deer woods by 5, if not 10, to 1.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old July 15, 2013, 09:34 AM   #33
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,863
Jimro - We're not talking .30/30 iron sight, woods shots here.

From my original post:
Quote:
you may want to consider velocity verses bullet weight for smaller, through medium-sized game, especially if you shoot at longer ranges from various positions/rests.
Relatively quick shots at a deer or coyote, leaning against a tree, sitting, or standing are conditions we encounter often in the field. For instance, just this morning, I shot a coyote at about 90 yards, offhand, in the blueberry field behind the house. A scope was necessary, for quick, but accurate shot placement and I didn't worry about my hold. The bullet flew true. That doesn't prove my theory, but is similar to situations that made me think about velocity and recoil in doing such shots.

Last edited by Picher; July 15, 2013 at 02:17 PM.
Picher is offline  
Old July 15, 2013, 02:18 PM   #34
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,438
If one cartridge falls 10" at 300 yards, and the other falls 50" at three hundred yards; all other things being equal, the 10" trajectory will be much easier for the average shooter to shoot accurately.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 02:11 AM   #35
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,676
Quote:
As for that .243 versus a 30-30... I'd be willing to bet that such rifles outnumber 30-30s in the deer woods by 5, if not 10, to 1.
How much are you willing to bet?

Compiled and annotated by Chuck Hawks
Source: Urchin Web Stats

Most readers have probably noticed that on the "Rifle Cartridge Page" of Guns and Shooting Online there are articles about all of the popular sporting cartridges in widespread use in North America (and much of the world, since Guns & Shooting Online has an international audience), as well as many of the less popular cartridges.

The Web Stats available to me as a "domain name" on the Internet can tell how many page views each individual article on my web site has received. This made compiling a list of the most popular articles about individual rifle cartridges possible.

What follows is a list of centerfire rifle cartridges. These are the cartridges whose articles have gotten the most page views on Guns & Shooting Online during the last complete year for which I have statistics. These are the cartridges in which the greatest number of you, the readers, have been most interested.

1. .308 Winchester - The .308 is one of the best selling cartridges in North America and the world (#5 on most lists), so it is no surprise that it interests many readers. It is the premier all-around cartridge for short action rifles.

2. .270 Winchester - The thousands of page views garnered by my article "The Great .270 Winchester" shows that interest in this classic all-around cartridge remains high. It is #3 on most North American sales lists, and it is popular all over the world. The .270 has been the standard of comparison for long range hunting cartridges for three quarters of a century, and it may be the best balanced all-around + long range hunting cartridge ever devised.

3. .30-06 Springfield - In sales, this is the most popular hunting cartridge in North America, and it is one of the elite worldwide cartridges. Many experts regard it as the best all-around hunting cartridge in the world. The .30-06 is in use on every continent where big game is hunted, so it is no surprise that its article gets a lot of page views.

4. .45-70 Government - The interest shown in this cartridge by the readers of Guns & Shooting Online came as quite a surprise. My article "The Good Old .45-70" must have been well named, as it has gotten a great many page hits. The .45-70 is, indeed, a very good old cartridge, and the most popular big bore in North America.

5. .30-30 Winchester - The .30-30 is one of the top selling rifle cartridges in North America (#1 to #4 on the sales lists, depending on which list you read). Interest in the cartridge remains high, probably partly due to its romantic association with the Old West, and partly because it is one of the best 200 yard deer and medium game cartridges ever designed.

6. 7mm Remington Magnum - The 7mm Rem. Mag. is the most popular belted cartridge in North America, number 7 on most ammunition sales lists. It is a fine all-around cartridge, deserving of its world-wide popularity. So it is not surprising that my article "Long Range Power: The 7mm Remington Magnum" regularly gets thousands of page views.

7. .223 Remington - This cartridge owes its popularity to its adoption by the USA and NATO as a standard military round. But it is also a fine, accurate, varmint cartridge and a pleasure to shoot at the range. Ammunition is widely distributed and inexpensive. The .223 (5.56mm NATO) is #2 on most sales lists and the top selling .22 centerfire rifle cartridge in the world.

8. .270 WSM - The .270 WSM has apparently taken the lead in the short magnum sweepstakes, at least among the readers of Guns and Shooting Online. This is not a surprise, as it is probably the most useful of the breed, and the only one that isn't simply a duplicate of another cartridge.

9. .300 Win. Mag. - The world's most popular .300 Magnum is the Winchester version, which is in the top 10 on most sales lists. This popularity is evidenced by the strong interest shown in this cartridge by Guns and Shooting Online readers.

10. .243 Winchester - The .243 is one of the lightest recoiling, long range, medium game cartridges in the world. It is also a capable varmint cartridge. The .243 is a very popular cartridge worldwide (number 6 on most lists in North America). It deserves the interest that its article receives.


Quote:
Relatively quick shots at a deer or coyote, leaning against a tree, sitting, or standing are conditions we encounter often in the field. For instance, just this morning, I shot a coyote at about 90 yards, offhand, in the blueberry field behind the house. A scope was necessary, for quick, but accurate shot placement and I didn't worry about my hold. The bullet flew true. That doesn't prove my theory, but is similar to situations that made me think about velocity and recoil in doing such shots.
90 yards is well within the point blank zero of even the most sedate cartridges. I maintain that inside the PBZ range velocity is not an indicator of increased accuracy. The PBZ of a 30-30 is almost three times that distance, so as long as the rifle is precise (shoots tight) and the shooter is accurate (can hit where aimed) then the velocity of the cartridge is not a concern.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 08:08 AM   #36
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
I wrote that poorly, I really meant in reference to your comment about heavy, unbalanced, scoped rifles and how you wouldn't want one in the deer woods. I guarantee that modern, scoped rifles outnumber 30-30 lever guns during deer season by a wide, wide margin. Even .243 specifically, I'm sure it varies from place to place but I'd bet the .243 by itself outnumbers 30-30 guns for deer hunting. From what I've seen in my area, it's not even close. The last 2 years, I've gone to a local range just before deer season to do some sighting. (Usually I shoot on private property). On those trips to that range, at least 6 trips, I saw exactly *one* lever gun, it was a 30-30 but even it wore a scope. The guy was checking it's zero "in case I decide to take it out" and he then switched to his 7mm something. Otherwise, I saw scoped handguns, many bolt guns (almost all scoped) of which .270 and .30-06 seemed most common and a couple of ARs. Just counting my own parties .243 rifles, we outnumbered all the .30-30s by 3:1 and there were certainly several other .243s. Those heavy, unbalanced, scoped, bolt action rifles outnumbered .30-30 guns by 20 or 30 to one and even the .30-30 had a scope. Is that definitive? Certainly not, but it's consistent with everything else I've seen and heard. In my pizza shop, I talk hunting with folks nearly every day during the season (when I'm not hunting ) and the hunting stories start well before and end well after the actual season. The query of "So, what are you throwing at 'em?" comes up frequently... The answer ".30-30", does not.

Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; July 16, 2013 at 08:15 AM.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 08:12 AM   #37
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,863
Jimro: A 30-30 is a great short-range cartridge for deer, but in Maine, the most popular round among SUCCESSFUL deer hunters is the .30-06, in a bolt-action rifle, according to Inland Fisheries and Wildlife surveys at deer tagging stations.
Picher is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 09:04 AM   #38
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,676
Brian, Picher,

I'm talking about national sales. Brian's experience with his local hunting scene suffers from the "small sample size" fallacy. As does "most successful hunters in Maine" which is but one of 50 states.

Notice that 30-06 is also in the top 5, as is the 7mm Rem Mag and 308 Win. The point being that you have a wide range of velocities, and none are particularly "more accurate" than any other.

I use the 30-30 as a referrence because it has "sedate" ballistics and yet remains very popular as witnessed by ammunition and reloading die sales. That literally millions upon millions of 30-30s are out there gives it plenty of institutional inertia, something rare for a civilian sporting cartridge.

Allow me to put this another way:

Muzzle velocity is affected by bore time. Longer barrels have longer bore times but also produce higher velocity. So, does muzzle velocity make up for the fact that the longer barrel gives the shooter more time to screw up the shot?

You can do this experiment with a 28" 308 and a 18" 308 and look for any sort of "accuracy gained from field positions" all you like, but you will not find it, even though the extra 10 inches of barrel can give over 200 fps advantage. The velocity advantage goes to the barrel with longer bore time, but the argument that high velocity cartridges have lower bore time is what Picher made.

So what is it? Higher velocity or shorter bore time? If it is shorter bore time, then clearly you want the shortest barrel that you can legally own. If it is highest velocity you want the longest barrel you can get.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 09:29 AM   #39
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,863
Jimro - I mentioned Maine, but forgot to mention that it's the most heavily forested state, so a person would expect that there would be more .30-30s being used here than other places.

Regardless, I'm done here.
Picher is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 09:37 AM   #40
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,540
Twenty of us, for around seven years, leased a 7,000-acre ranch in the hill/brush country west of San Antonio. All of us used scoped bolt-actions.

Several hundred hunters is a not-uncommon number for mule deer season on Terlingua Ranch in southern Brewster County, Texas. Very, very low percentage of anything besides scoped bolt-actions.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old July 16, 2013, 03:05 PM   #41
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,438
Art, for long range hunting, I really see no other viable option than the bolt action. The light weight semi autos are not accurate enough for long range work. The accurate semi autos are heavy as a sniper rifle because that is what they are. The .308 Ar platform is accurate enough, but definitely not up for long range hunting.
reynolds357 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10668 seconds with 9 queries