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Old July 10, 2013, 11:54 PM   #1
Metal god
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What makes a cartridge a wild cat

I thought I understood what wild cat meant but now not so much .

Is the 243 Winchester a wild cat ? cus the parent case is 308

what about 7mm-08 ?

How about the 308 cus it's from the 300 Savage .

Is it a different sized bullet in a already established case ? Whats make a cartridge a wild cat and is there a clear cut definition ?
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Old July 11, 2013, 12:05 AM   #2
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Traditional definition is a cartridge that is not factory loaded. The .35 Whelen comes to mind as a round that was a wildcat for years until Remington made it a factory round. The 25-06 is another.The 243 Winchester was a factory round from its inception. The 7MM-08 Remington is a close copy of a wildcat called the 7MM-308.
308 from the 300 Savage? The 308/7.62 Nato was developedfrom the 30/06.
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Old July 11, 2013, 01:09 AM   #3
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A wildcat cartridge is a non-standard, non-factory loaded cartridge, with no dimensional or load standards. A cartridge that gets standard dimensions, and standard pressure rating (usually from SAAMI) becomes a production cartridge, even if no ammunition is factory loaded for it (like the 22BR, and 6mmBR were originally).

And yes, 7.62X51mm NATO was developed from the 300 Savage, but it had specifications and standard dimensions right from the get-go because it was developed cooperatively by Springfield Armory and Winchester for the then-new experimental T-25 rifle.
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Old July 11, 2013, 01:28 AM   #4
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Quote:
The 308/7.62 Nato was developedfrom the 30/06.
That's a common misconception, as Scorch pointed out and Metal God originally mentioned. 7.62x51mm was originally based on a "stretched" .300 Savage case.
Lengthening a cartridge doesn't really fit with the general pattern of cartridge evolution, but we have to have some oddities and exceptions. (Like .35 Whelen actually being based on .30-03, not .30-06 as is commonly believed.)
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:16 AM   #5
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Nebraska gunsmith Jerry Gebby developed his "Varminter" in the 1930s by necking down the Savage .250-3000 to .22 caliber. Remington finally came out with the .22-250.

Lyle Kilbourn's K-Hornet is a wildcat, as is the 8mm06. Same for a lot of the Ackley Improved cartridges. Phone Ackley, buy a reamer, Improve.

Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide To Handloading" has extensive coverage of wildcat cartridges, as well as some loading data.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:42 AM   #6
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Wildcatters develop wildcats and factories develop factory cartridges
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Old July 11, 2013, 07:22 PM   #7
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For SIGSHR and Scorch. . . . . .

Here's the history of the 7.62 NATO round's development and its commercial equal, the .308 Winchester:

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...in-of-308.html

Note that in 1944 Springfield Armory was instructed to develop the new weapon (eventually the M14) and Frankford Arsenal to develop the cartridge (eventually, the 7.62x51mm NATO).
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Old July 11, 2013, 09:58 PM   #8
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If you want to muddy the waters a little throw the term "proprietary cartridge." into the discussion as well
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Old July 12, 2013, 08:23 AM   #9
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A better example than a .308 or .243 would be the 22-250. It had no development initially from any major manufacturer, it was being shot from custom rifles by the likes of Phil Sharpe and others starting in the 1930's but wasn't adopted by a manufacturer until the mid 1960's. By my definition, a wildcat would require a custom rifle to shoot its custom ammo.
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Old July 12, 2013, 12:20 PM   #10
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By SVTCobra306's definition, a wildcat would require a custom rifle to shoot its custom ammo.

But the commercial Remington 40X single shot match rifle came in .30-.338 Win. Mag. and no commercial ammo was available for it; one had to reform cases from 7mm Rem. or .338 Win. magnum cases to make handloads for it.
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Old July 12, 2013, 12:43 PM   #11
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Well it's nice to know I'm not the only one that does not have a complete understanding of wild cat .

What I'm getting from this thread is a wild cat is a round that is not commercially made ,Yes ?

If a wild cat gets a SAAMI rating or spec sheet is it no longer a wild cat ? If so what determines when SAAMI takes an interest in the round and works up some specs for it ?

How many and or is it common for commercial/factory barrels to be made for cartridges that are not made commercially or factory made . If you can't buy the barrel off the shelf or if you have to modify a barrel/chamber to shoot the new round . That would indicate a custom barrel/rifle to me .
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Old July 12, 2013, 01:12 PM   #12
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I think the route out of wildcatcom would be for a SAAMI member company to submit the specifications for a cartridge to SAAMI for standardization and publication.

A finished factory firearm in a wildcat chambering is quite unusual, like the .30-338 Bart mentioned and the comparable 6mm Walker International. There was one of the Remington Benchrest Calibers that they did not sell brass for for some time.

But a barrelmaker will sell you anything he has a reamer for.
Pac-Nor lists 37 wildcat chambers in .30 cal alone.

Some of them are modifications of factory rounds, like a .300 Weatherby Magnum with no throat and a .333" neck. That would let you throat separately for the bullet you wanted and turn case necks for close neck to chamber fit and alignment. A target rifle with a Weatherby chamber body. But not a SAAMI spec chamber nor a factory product, therefore a wildcat.
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Old July 12, 2013, 06:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
A finished factory firearm in a wildcat chambering is quite unusual, like the .30-338 Bart mentioned and the comparable 6mm Walker International.
Browning chambered their bolt action High Power rifles in 22-250 several years before the cartridge was introduced commercially as well.
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Old July 12, 2013, 11:24 PM   #14
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Many cartridges that most call "wild cat" are really "proprietary."
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Old July 13, 2013, 12:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
Many cartridges that most call "wild cat" are really "proprietary."
Can you give a few examples of why you believe so?
(My experience differs.)
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Old July 13, 2013, 12:36 AM   #16
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A proprietary cartridge is one that the designer/namer owns the rights to using the name, selling ammunition, selling reamers, etc. This has happened lately with A-Square, SSK Industries, Hawk, and several others. Weatherby is possibly the most famous maker of proprietary cartridges. Those are not wildcat cartridges, they have SAAMI dimensional specs and pressure/load specs available.
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Old July 13, 2013, 02:12 AM   #17
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Lack of factory support, and usually aren't any better than a factory round (really)...
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Old July 13, 2013, 05:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Weatherby is possibly the most famous maker of proprietary cartridges.
Now that you can buy Remington brand ammunition in Weatherby calibers, I think it has lost its proprietary status.
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Old July 13, 2013, 12:34 PM   #19
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Most of the WBY. is on the SAAMI list.
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Old July 13, 2013, 12:37 PM   #20
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Proprietary?
Dakota, JDJ, Beouwolf, Firebird, Firehawk, Several hundred custom gun makers have their own list. I have two myself that RCBS wont make dies for anyone else on those specs.
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Old July 13, 2013, 05:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Proprietary?
Dakota, JDJ, Beouwolf, Firebird, Firehawk, Several hundred custom gun makers have their own list. I have two myself that RCBS wont make dies for anyone else on those specs.
Very rarely, have I seen people refer to any of those as wildcats. Even when they do, it seems to be driven by the fact that the general audience for the statement probably wouldn't understand the difference between "proprietary" and "wildcat"; so the simpler term "wildcat" was chosen to avoid an explanation.
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Old July 14, 2013, 09:54 AM   #22
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It's pretty hard to get proprietary rights when a case is formed like for the 300 Wby from 300H&H case. it was same with 6ppc from 220 sako
Russian case but the right to the ppc name were owned and sold to Dakota which is now owned by Rem.
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Old July 14, 2013, 05:49 PM   #23
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generally wildcat is a cartridge developed in some guys garage and requires home manufactured ammo, custom reloading dies and custom built guns because nobody makes guns in that caliber and nobody makes the ammo.

about 5 years ago 300 blackout was still considered a wildcat, now there are a half dozen manufacturers making guns in that caliber and I believe that there is now factory ammo so it is no longer a wildcat.
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Old July 23, 2013, 07:02 PM   #24
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The new 2014 Gun Digest is about to hit the shelves. There is a nice feature article on Wildcat cartridges.
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Old July 25, 2013, 04:10 AM   #25
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Another example of a wildcat becoming a standard is the 6.5x308. For many years it was a wildcat until Remington decided to chamber it in their rifles and give it a new designation........260 Remington.
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