The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 5, 2013, 10:16 AM   #26
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 263
Most houses are made of the usual wallboard material which is not bullet resistant at all. There are things in the wall which might have some resistant properties like pipes, but most walls consist of two wall boards and some insulation. You can kick through most walls.

If you go to the range with a few sheets of wallboard Ill bet money the average round penetrates.
johnelmore is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 11:17 AM   #27
JD0x0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2013
Posts: 916
Quote:
Most houses are made of the usual wallboard material which is not bullet resistant at all. There are things in the wall which might have some resistant properties like pipes, but most walls consist of two wall boards and some insulation. You can kick through most walls.
+1 I've shot .177cal pellets through house walls and doors. Just about every self defense weapon that fires a projectile can penetrate though those walls. A shotgun will "over penetrate" just as much as a pistol with self defense loads. Think of it like this. If it can't make it through the wall it probably can't make it through a BG's clothes and flesh. I don't worry so much about "over penetration" if you miss the BG your bullet is going through the wall either way. You should always be aware of what's behind your target either way.
JD0x0 is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 12:27 PM   #28
Madcap_Magician
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 627
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
Caliber size wound effects on <snip> the human body
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
Caliber size wound effects on 60-liter water jugs
Fixed that for ya.
Madcap_Magician is online now  
Old July 5, 2013, 02:39 PM   #29
Ludwig Von Mises
Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2012
Location: Nowhere in particular
Posts: 52
Quote:
So if I was going to choose a self defense pistol based on this video I would go with a full sized high capacity 9mm loaded with +p+ rounds and focus on 3 shot bursts in training. In rifle calibers I believe the AK47 is the winner.
As of now, the only reasonably priced, mass produced pistol to fulfill the need for super hot loads, is the Ruger P95. The manual basically tells you to shoot +P+ out of it. Never had +P+, but the slide is heavy enough to put five rounds of 124gr +P Ranger within a 5 gallon jug, in 2 or 3 seconds. at 10-15 yds. Much more than that, get a rifle.

As an owner of a 16 inch AK (VEPR 308), I wouldnt advise using it for home defense, unless you have alot of land. The liability is way too high. 7.62 has been known to easily penetrate cinderblock walls, and occasionally penetrate red brick. Be kind to your neighbors, stick with good 9mm JHP's, or 00 buck.
Ludwig Von Mises is offline  
Old July 8, 2013, 04:46 AM   #30
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: May 2, 1999
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,605
Quote:
If you go to the range with a few sheets of wallboard Ill bet money the average round penetrates.
Didn't bother to click on the link I provided, did you.
__________________
http://www.scfirearms.org/
Al Thompson is offline  
Old July 8, 2013, 07:34 AM   #31
JimPage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 636
A recent arrest for reckless endangerment in Oneida County of NY state of a man who was shooting his .22LR. Stray round penetrated outside wall, glass door (I suspect it was a shower door), another wall and lodged in the third wall. Don't know more details than were in the newspaper.

Of course, the news reporters are not so accurate, but it's worth considering.
__________________
Jim Page

Cogito, ergo armatum sum
JimPage is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 12:06 PM   #32
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,951
Friend of mine dated his best friend's sister in high school, had a thing for her even after they all grew up & married other people. She was in her early 20s, lying in her own bed next to her 9 month old baby, when the guy across the street decided to "dry fire" his new rifle.

She died instantly, shot through the head with a bullet that traveled through at least two walls before it came to rest inside her brain.

Don't tell me that rifle bullets don't go though walls. They can and do. Saying they don't is as irresponsible as the idiots on Mythbusters telling people it's okay to shoot up into the air, as long as you point straight up.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 09:13 PM   #33
Mezzanine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 103
Whats the medical field have to gain from this video?
Dr - "You got shot with what?"
Patient -"a .338"
Dr - "Oh i saw a video, your gonna die."

Dont get me wrong, its a fine video. I just hope that this wasnt the most informational video played there.
Mezzanine is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 09:36 PM   #34
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,206
Has any american civilian been shot with a .338? Seems rather unlikely
dakota.potts is offline  
Old July 10, 2013, 05:06 PM   #35
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
.338 Win Mag? There's probably been a few unlucky hunters got tagged. .338 Lapua? Not so much...
csmsss is offline  
Old July 10, 2013, 06:56 PM   #36
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: May 2, 1999
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,605
Quote:
Don't tell me that rifle bullets don't go though walls.
Handgun bullets go through walls better than properly selected rifle bullets. Ball ammunition (.30-06) from my '03A3 (poor choice) will go through my house, my neighbors house and probably into his neighbor's house.

All bullets are not the same. If I were going to keep a loaded 5.56/.223 rifle around for SD/HD, a fairly frangible load (as illustrated in the link) absolutely does not penetrate as much. The reason is the high velocity combined with short range. This test barely got 6 inches of penetration at 200 yards, at close range, probably even more fragmentation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqmclsRQmM
__________________
http://www.scfirearms.org/
Al Thompson is offline  
Old July 27, 2013, 01:47 PM   #37
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,495
Rifleman1776 & Frank Ettin makes some good points.

Using water bottles for "ballistic comparisons"? Welcome to the 1950's.
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old July 28, 2013, 08:02 AM   #38
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,475
I use water jugs and watermellons to impress kids with the explosive aspects of bullets, stressing what really happens (or what they think happens) when bullets hit objects, as part of their firearms safety training.

But it has no relation to reality.

I like to use the 204 Ruger, its a small bullet traveling fast and will "blow up" water jugs. Not the big bullet the OP mentions, its a 32 gr bullet a hair over 4000 FPS.

Then again, shooting bowling pins at 100 yards is not very effective, it goes right through and hardly moves the pin.

Quote:
There doesnt appear to be a lot of difference on the jug between the 9mm and 357, but there is a great difference with a burst of fire with hot 9mm.
That's not a very good comparison, why not shoot three fast 357 rounds. Shoot some bowling pins with a 9 mm and 357s, check out the results and come back and tell us the 9mm is more effective.

The only guarantee from any bullet is that you never know what any bullet will do. Chances are no two exact bullets will react the same way when fired from the same gun, into the same target.

What does matter is the shooters ability to shoot a given gun. Recoil makes a big difference.

It doesn't take a lot of recoil either, take International Rapid Fire Pistol

If I remember right you have 7 seconds to shoot five targets, then 5 seconds to shoot five targets, and then 3 seconds to shoot five targets.

This is normally shot with 22s. Even then recoil matters, there is a huge difference between 22 LR and 22 shorts.

Point being, stop worrying about internet videos, shooting water jugs, phone books etc.

Pick a round that you can shoot, a little gun you can shoot beats the heck out of a big gun you can't shoot.

Rifles for home defense????

Try this, find out how your house is made, then go to a construction sight and get some scraps that matches your homes construction as close as possible.

Build you an frame, using 2X4s (or what ever framing your house has) paneling or sheet rock on one side, siding on the other. Fill it with the same insulation you have, and shoot it with varying guns, rifles, pistols, etc.

You're going to be surprised what happens. Think about your results before you decide to fire off some rifle rounds in your house.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old July 28, 2013, 11:57 AM   #39
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,654
In a recent case in the area, an SKS was fired inside a home. The bullet penetrated the outer wall, the outer wall of a house 50 yards away, two interior walls of that house, and partway through an outer wall.

The idea that a gunshot, from any gun, will never overpenetrate is absurd, not matter how many rigged tests advocates of this or that gun come up with.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old July 28, 2013, 04:33 PM   #40
grumpa72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2009
Posts: 464
For realistic (non-scientific but still verifiable, imo) I like the original box O'truth test using drywall and various ammunition. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Then, when you are bored, you get into http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.html such things as the Buick O' truth and the demonstrations against car doors, engine blocks etc.

Oth, enough folks have been killed/stopped/scared by everything from a .22 to a 12 gauge. If I had to shoot a bad guy, had the time, the money and the lawyering, I kind of like what the .50 BMG does to the keg of water. Me? I carry a Colt Commander .45 acp because I trust it, like it, shoot it VERY well, and it has proven itself for 100 years.
grumpa72 is offline  
Old July 29, 2013, 05:47 PM   #41
ShootingTargets7.com
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2013
Posts: 11
Meh...
Personally I think the AA-12 shotgun would be hard to beat for home defense. I don't need to jug of water to prove that I just have a "feeling"
ShootingTargets7.com is offline  
Old July 29, 2013, 10:36 PM   #42
btmj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 775
An earlier post asked "why does the water jug jump into the air"

The bullet passing through the water creates a pressure wave. When the wave hits the side and bottom of the plastic water jug, the force of the wave is passed through the plastic wall of the jug and into whatever is on the other side. The bottom of the jug is resting on a firm solid surface, so the plastic flexible bottom "punches" the floor, causing the jug to jump.

If you could have your hand on the side of the jug as the bullet passed through, you would feel a sharp impact in your hand. I would imagine it would be similar to catching a baseball. I don't recommend this !

If the jug were sitting on an absorbent foam pad, it probably would not jump.

If the jug were a steel drum of the same weight, it probably would not jump because the steel would flex less and transmit less of the wave energy into the floor. In fact most steel drums are designed so that only the rim touches the floor, the bottom of the drum is raised above the floor. In this case, almost no energy would be transmitted to the floor.... no jump.

As others have pointed out, people are not plastic water jugs.
btmj is online now  
Old August 23, 2013, 10:03 PM   #43
MarkXIX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2006
Location: TN
Posts: 102
While it has no real scientific ballistic results and doesn't try to have them, in relation to shooting water filled jugs for visually stimulating results; this video is hard to beat as far as how many cartridges are used and how many different brands of ammunition between them all is featured. Pretty entertaining I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekc8rs6CAOg
MarkXIX is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 10:50 PM   #44
PAT99MI
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2013
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2

Last edited by PAT99MI; August 27, 2013 at 05:23 PM.
PAT99MI is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 11:07 PM   #45
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,206
Pat,
Weclome o the firing line! This is probably the wrong place for your question.

My answer is no, do not mix rounds. Hollow point +p's will go through a couch (unless you're sitting on all steel). Unless you're trying to shoot through something like a car door, a hollow point should do it, and that way you're familiar with exactly what is loaded.

However, I do recommend starting a new thread to discuss this topic.
dakota.potts is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 11:13 PM   #46
481
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT99MI:
I'm new to this forum and maybe an answer to my question has already been posted. I'm an almost senior female with a physical disability and will be taking a CCl class shortly. I purchased a Ruger .38 LCR to carry once I'm licensed but I'm using it for home defense until I purchase a shotgun. Would it be a good idea to use multiple ammos in a load to cover different scenarios? For example, load 3 soft hollow point +P's and 2 rounds of a harder more penetrating type ammo in case I have to shoot through a couch or something. I wouldn't know which bullet was on first but I would more than likely empty the load anyway.
Since it is terribly impractical and darned near impossible to select a specific chamber in your revolver's cylinder allowing you to address a life-threatening situation in a timely manner, you are best off purchasing premium self-defense JHP ammunition and loading your revolver's cylinder with them.

Several manufacturers (Remington, Federal, Winchester, Speer, Hornady to name a few) offer several premium JHP designs (Golden Sabre, HydraShok, PDX1, Gold Dot, Critical Duty, respectively) in a broad range of bullet weights (110 gr, 125 gr, 158 gr. etc.) and velocities (from 750-1050 fps) for the .38 Special. Any of these JHPs will make it through typical household furniture.
__________________
My favorite "gun" book -

QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION

Last edited by 481; August 23, 2013 at 11:19 PM.
481 is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 11:36 PM   #47
Jim243
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2009
Location: Just off Route 66
Posts: 4,575
MarkXIX, thanks for the video link. I didn't think I would enjoy it, but I did. While 40 min long it was interesting to see what all the calibers and different bullets would do. I thought the 50BMG would do more damage than it did.

Thanks again.
Jim
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Jim243 is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 01:58 AM   #48
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
Don't tell me that rifle bullets don't go though walls. They can and do. Saying they don't is as irresponsible as the idiots on Mythbusters telling people it's okay to shoot up into the air, as long as you point straight up.
Light hollow-point .223 loads will penetrate through walls less than most handgun and shotgun loads (but they'll still penetrate enough to be lethal on the other side). However, just pointing out that fact doesn't mean I'm advocating being unsafe with a firearm.

And whatever you might think about the Mythbusters guys, they definitely aren't idiots. They never said it was OK to shoot in the air, they only did an experiment that showed bullets fired straight up won't come down with enough velocity to kill someone. They also said that it's easy to accidentallly fire the gun in the air at an angle, and that angle is what allows the bullet to retain enough velocity to kill; they explicitly told people during that episode to NEVER fire a gun into the air.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is online now  
Old August 24, 2013, 02:03 AM   #49
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAT99MI
I'm new to this forum and maybe an answer to my question has already been posted. I'm an almost senior female with a physical disability and will be taking a CCl class shortly. I purchased a Ruger .38 LCR to carry once I'm licensed but I'm using it for home defense until I purchase a shotgun. Would it be a good idea to use multiple ammos in a load to cover different scenarios? For example, load 3 soft hollow point +P's and 2 rounds of a harder more penetrating type ammo in case I have to shoot through a couch or something. I wouldn't know which bullet was on first but I would more than likely empty the load anyway.
Pat, welcome to TFL, but what you're doing here is hijacking the OP's thread. Feel free to make your own thread with your question, we'll all be happy to help.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is online now  
Old August 24, 2013, 02:13 AM   #50
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Bullets can go through walls.

As some have noted, bullets can be selected that are less likely to do so than are others.

Accusations of "rigged tests" are confusing. The 5.56 vs 9mm vs 12ga
a few posters mentioned has been discussed on TFL many a time. This is the first time I have seen people suggest results were falsified.

Note that the 5.56 used in that test was not penetrator core type ammo, and that it was traveling near max velocity in the test, so it disintegrated at wall impact.
MLeake is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14912 seconds with 10 queries