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Old July 10, 2013, 01:38 PM   #26
BirchOrr
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To each his own...

Quote:
The ROA's that they talked about are fine guns, but extremely overpriced. I would never buy one.
I'm quite careful on this forum not to "poo-poo" what others may like or own. I do have my preferences. The ROA is a modern pistol. It's a Blackhawk that shoots BP. To get this kind of quality, you have to pay for it. You simply can't buy a modern pistol (worth shooting) for $175. You can buy a BP reproduction pistol made in Italy for this amount. If you buy an Italian reproduction of any firearm that shoots smokeless rounds, you will pay MUCH more than $175. Overpriced? I don't think so. This is not to mention the ROA is made right here in the good 'ol US of A. If you don't own one or never would buy one, it would seem this opinion and conclusion comes from no experience in ever shooting an ROA. You are entitled to your opinion, but I'm scratching my head as to the basis of where you draw this conclusion.

I take no offence, nor intend any.

Respectfully,

Birch
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Old July 10, 2013, 03:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
This is not to mention the ROA is made right here in the good 'ol US of A. If you don't own one or never would buy one, it would seem this opinion and conclusion comes from no experience in ever shooting an ROA. You are entitled to your opinion, but I'm scratching my head as to the basis of where you draw this conclusion.
Just because its made here doesn't make it God's gift. Personally I would never look at one. I've been shooting bp revolvers since 69 and the Italians have the right idea.
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Old July 10, 2013, 05:39 PM   #28
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Quote:
Just because its made here doesn't make it God's gift.
No, but it doesn't hurt.

It's God's gift simply because it's the best there is.

Sorry, Hawg, I just couldn't help myself. I'll go back to sleep now.
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Old July 10, 2013, 05:53 PM   #29
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It's God's gift simply because it's the best there is.
Best mechanically and if you don't care anything about history. I like my guns to be historical, not some modern fantasy version.
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Old July 11, 2013, 06:26 AM   #30
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lol! Didn't mean to start an argument! This is my basis. Rugers don't feel right. I will wager that in a shooting match, a ROA would have no real advantage over any other competitors model. I have seen dead on Uberti's, Pietta's, etc. And every ROA you get is used. You can get a new Italian model for less than the used ROA in most cases. Other than that, if'n you like em, you like em. I hated the look of Remmys for a long time, I own 3 of em now, lol, and they are almost always one of the guns I take with me. So, end of the day, it was just how I felt, not even an opinion really. But then again, original poster sounded like he was trying to do it without mortaging his home, so once again, for the money, Pietta in whatever floats your boat from Cabelas. And now I will zip my trap
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Old July 11, 2013, 09:02 AM   #31
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No argument Dave. Mikey boy rags me all the time. I think everybody knows how I feel about Rugers but I still have to put my two cents worth in every now and then.
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Old July 11, 2013, 09:23 AM   #32
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Yep. Hawg and I been doin' this a while. If I didn't respond to one of his ROA shots he'd think I was dead and try to steal mine. Besides, we need the entertainment in our dotage.
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Old July 11, 2013, 10:28 AM   #33
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If I didn't respond to one of his ROA shots he'd think I was dead and try to steal mine.
I'd just steal it so I could bury it with you.
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Old July 11, 2013, 12:35 PM   #34
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I can say this,
In a SHOOTING COMPETITION, You can give a so so shooter a top of the line race gun, and see very little improvement in his scores.

But you give a good shooter a decent gun, and his performance will not be far off from his normal scores.

It is all about experience and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and PRACTICE!

Know the gun you shoot.
Where does it hit at 10 ft, and at 15 yards, 25, 40, 50, 75, even out to 100.
Shoot it enough with the same load (the one you have found to be most accurate out of that gun.) until you automatically know where it will hit at any given distance with that load.

It doesn't matter what you are shooting (.22, .44 cap & ball, .38spl, 9mm, .45 acp. or what ever,)learn what you shoot.

Learn to shoot around that load. (2 inches low at 10 ft. dead on at 15 & 25, 5 inches high at 50, dead on again at 70, and 7 inches low at 100)

I used to shoot Black powder competition in the 80's
And 3 gun (long before it became popular), and IPSC.

I once heard a big name shooter say, "Its not the guy that spent $3000 for a new gun that worries me. Its the guy that spent $3000 in powder, primers, and projectiles that i am worried will beat me"
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Old July 11, 2013, 01:21 PM   #35
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Quote:
I'd just steal it so I could bury it with you.
LOL!!! You guys kill me!!!



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Old July 11, 2013, 02:17 PM   #36
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I'd just steal it so I could bury it with you.
You have no idea how much comfort that gives me.
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Old July 11, 2013, 02:21 PM   #37
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Here's the things I would point out to a newbie seeking their first BP revolver.
Let's start with the big bore most powerful ones first.

1. Walker and 3 versions of Dragoons in .44 caliber.

I've had a Colt Walker clone that can shoot up to a 50 grain charge. It was the most powerful revolver in the world from 1847 up until 1935 when the .357 magnum revolver came out that was arguably more powerful. I say "arguably" because although .357 has more velocity, it is arguable as to whether it has more knockdown power than a .44 ball shot from a .50 grain Walker charge. So the Walker is the most powerful BP historical revolver if that is a consideration. Second in power from the Walker are the three different models of the Dragoon. The 3 versions of Dragoons are just slightly less powerful than the Walker since they have a slightly shorter cylinder and shorter barrel. The Dragoons also have a better loading lever catch than the Walker since the Walker's loading lever spring can allow the lever to drop under a heavy recoil charge.

2. .44 Colt and Remington .44's.

Although it is not historically accurate in .44 caliber since it was originally only made in .36 caliber, the reproductions of the 1851 Colt are also made in .44 caliber. The 1860 more streamlined Colt reproductions are also made in .44 caliber. All the BP Colts use an open frame (no topstrap over the cylinder) and are available in brass and steel frames. The steel frame will accept more powerful powder charges without damage, whereas the brass frame ones should be loaded with lesser charges due to the brass frame under recoil being imprinted by the steel cylinder and also because heavy charges can stretch and deform the brass frame. That being said, as long as you load 20 to 22 grains of BP in a .44 brass Colt frame or 12 to 15 grains in a .36 caliber brass Colt frame, it shouldn't cause those imprinting or deformation of the frame problems.

My experience is that the 1851 and the 1860 Colt clone .44's, are better balanced to my hand than the 1858 Remington .44 is. This is because of the extra weight of the top strap on the frame of the Remington. I personally prefer the 1860 Colts over the 1851 Colts because I have large hands and the 1860's have longer grips than the 1851 does so my pinky finger doesn't have to curl under the grips of the 1860's like it does on the 1851's.

The 1858 Remington has a top strap closed frame which makes it arguably stronger than the Colt clone's frames, is much easier to completely disassemble than the Colts because it only takes one screw to remove the trigger guard to expose the bolt stop and bolt stop/trigger spring, one screw to remove to drop the hammer down to where you can unscrew the cylinder pawl (hand) from the hammer, and one screw to remove the trigger and bolt stop and one screw to remove the bolt stop spring and one screw to remove tension from the hammer spring so it can be removed. That of course is total disassembly and not usually required for normal cleaning. Normally just removing the single screw to remove the trigger guard is all that is necessary to clean and lubricate the internal mechanism. That is a big plus over the Colts (which I will cover below). Also the Remy cylinder can be removed in just a few seconds and replaced with another. Whereas the Colt clones must have the barrel to frame wedge pushed almost all the way out, then lower the loading lever against the cylinder to lever the barrel off the Colt frame and then slide the cylinder off the arbor, replace it with a loaded one and reassemble in reverse.

For myself (and I think most people would agree), the Colt clones have a better balance in the hand than the Remy due to several factors, one being the grip and its angle, but chiefly in my mind because of the extra weight of the topstrap of the Remy which to me negatively affects the balance in my hand. I can live with that, but it is a factor and although I have both Remy and Colt clones, it is an important factor to me and I much prefer the balance of the Colts. However, the Remy due to the design of its frame, is less inclined for spent cap fragments to drop into and jam the action as frequently as happens with the Colt design frame.

In ANY of the Colt clones, in order to completely disassemble them, you have to remove all the screws that hold the frame and grip assembly together, as well as the screws that hold the trigger, hammer, and bolt stop spring. So there are more screws to remove than on the Remy. Also you have to remove the wedge that holds the barrel to the Colt frame. Unlike the Remy, when you reassemble the grip assembly to the Colt frame, you will find that the grip assembly is slightly "sprung" (in order for it to fit tightly when all screws are tightened) so that you must start all the screws a few threads before you tighten them all down. Otherwise you can strip out the threads on the screws because they can go in cocked at an angle if you tighten one down before the others. So you have to balance in your mind whether you would prefer the superior balance of the Colts, or whether you would prefer the easier disassembly of the Remy and its (arguably) superior strength due to its topstrap closed frame.

3. .36 caliber (full sized) Colt and Remy clones.

The factors are all the same as discussed above. The only difference is they are in the smaller .36 caliber and some of the Colt frame models (1862 police and others) have smaller frames than a full size .36 caliber 1851 does.

4. .31 caliber Colt and Remy clones.

The factors are all the same as discussed above. The only difference is they are in the smaller .31 caliber.

Although my first BP revolver was a .44 Walker, (which also is the only time I ever experienced a chainfire with a black powder revolver on the very first time I ever shot a BP revolver), I would not recommend that to others for their first BP revolver. I am torn between whether to recommend as a newbie's first revolver, an 1851, 1860 Colt, or an 1858 Remy. They are all good and I do prefer the balance of the Colts. However, if I had to make a decision for a newbie, I would recommend the steel frame 1858 Remy in either .36 or .44 caliber as their choice for their first BP revolver. Because being steel frame and (arguably) having more strength due to its closed frame topstrap, it will forgive mistakes in overloading without the frame stretching or being deformed or imprinted. And also because it is easier to disassemble for cleaning. Then once familiar and confident with shooting and cleaning their Remy, I'd then suggest either the 1851 or 1860 Colt clones in steel frame also, with a nod towards the larger grip of the 1860 if they have big hands like I have since the 1860 grip is longer than the 1851's grip.

Then once familiar with both their 1858 Remy and either 1851 or 1860 Colts in either .36 or .44 caliber, they can afterwards then graduate to the larger, heavier Dragoons/Walker as well as the rebated cylinder much smaller frame .36 caliber revolvers such as the 1862 police or the even smaller frame .31 caliber Colt and .31 caliber baby Remy revolvers also.

So my advice ultimately to a newbie seeking their first BP revolver would be a steel frame Remy first, then a steel frame 1851 or 1860 second, then perhaps later a Dragoon, or an 1862 police, or a .31 caliber Colt or baby Remy.

Finally, it is only my opinion, (and it is arguable), that although Pietta makes a good 1858 Remy BP revolver (I had one and no complaints), I think the Uberti's are just a little better overall in quality over the Pietta's. Not to say the Piettas are bad, just my opinion the Uberti's are a tad more quality fitted and finished. This can vary though from gun to gun and time period to time period it was manufactured. Also on the Pietta 1858 Remys, the front sight and loading lever catch are soldered straight into the barrel and must be heated with a torch to remove. But on the Uberti they are both dovetail friction held in place and are easily removed with a hammer and punch. This becomes important if you need to completely remove the arbor from an 1858 Remy, since you must remove the loading lever catch to take the arbor out of the 1858 Remy. So between Uberti and Pietta 1858 Remys, for that reason alone I'd choose the Uberti.

That's my advise to a newbie for their first BP revolver, based on my experience.


.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; July 11, 2013 at 03:12 PM.
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Old July 11, 2013, 02:50 PM   #38
45 Dragoon
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What Bill said.
Main thing is , you can't go wrong with any of them. Fun is fun whatever version you decide on. I myself am a huge fan of the bigun's !!!!

Don't get too much into the Rem. stronger than Colt thing. I am pretty sure Colts went the way of the frame for production reasons. Easier (and cheaper) to drill a frame and screw in a barrel than manufacture the barrel assys. they produced until the Mod. of 1873. Not to mention the fitting of the arbor to barrel assy. that is soo much talked about (and rightly so and very necessary). Thanks to the Ubertis and Peittas for affordable guns you, I and a host of others enjoy and yak about to anyone who will listen !!!!!!!


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Old July 11, 2013, 10:04 PM   #39
BirchOrr
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I'm pretty sure...

... the person who started this thread is now more confused than ever.

There is almost an entire book written in this thread on a simple question.



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Old July 11, 2013, 10:42 PM   #40
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Quote:
There is almost an entire book written in this thread on a simple question.
Bill do get long winded don't him?
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:32 PM   #41
Bill Akins
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The original poster asked for recommendations as to what his first black powder revolver should be. That isn't a "simple question" to answer at all, due to a host of many different factors that must be explained in order to give the OP a comprehensive answer that can enable him to have enough knowledge from the answer for him to make his best decision of what BP revolver he should buy first.


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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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Old July 12, 2013, 12:24 AM   #42
n5lyc
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Hmm, lets see...
Pietta, traditions, uberti, colt.

Sounds like the same argument, different board.

Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Harley...

The choice is simple, if they all made junk, they would not have been in business as long as they have...

Bottom line, pick the one that FEELS the best to you (and is in your price range) and ride it.. ( I mean shoot it...)

You can always upgrade later.. After you find out if this is the hobby for you..

.
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I make 2 predictions:
ON THE DATE WHEN US TROOPS ARE ISSUED AN Energy Pulse Weapon,
1. The US Soldier will have on his person a version of the Colt 1911.
2. He will be aiming the NEW Weapon at someone carrying an AK.
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Old July 12, 2013, 04:50 AM   #43
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N5LYC

Yep. Pretty much.
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Old July 12, 2013, 08:14 AM   #44
BirchOrr
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Quote:
That isn't a "simple question" to answer at all
After several cups of coffee this AM (and some thought), You are correct. This isn't such a simple question.



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Old July 12, 2013, 05:30 PM   #45
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The obvious answer is: You must buy one of each.



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Old July 12, 2013, 06:17 PM   #46
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Well Holy Cow, someone DID have the answer!!!!!!! He's right, there's no such thing as "too many" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks maillemaker!



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Old July 12, 2013, 08:15 PM   #47
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Go to the store and handle all the guns. Buy whatever feels best in your hands. When I went to buy my last gun I thought I wanted a '58 remington but it felt awkward. Then I picked up my '51 Colt and it felt like I could hit anything with it. I liked that gun so much I bought the display model
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Old July 13, 2013, 08:29 PM   #48
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I think it's a very simple question.

It's the answer that (some) people are making far, far too complicated.
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Old July 14, 2013, 07:02 AM   #49
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Mykeal, if you think it's a simple question, that doesn't require a complicated answer in order for the OP to gain enough knowledge to know which BP revolver to buy first, then consider this.....

Pretend a teenager you don't know and have never seen was writing to you asking for recommendations of what his first car should be.

You don't know how much money he has.
You don't how how large or how small the teenager is.

Now without explaining to him in some necessary details the characteristics about all the different model cars there are out there, and without explaining to him or asking him about horsepower considerations, without explaining to him considerations about gas mileage variance between models of cars, without telling him about moonroofs, convertible tops, mini vans, coupes, sport models, work trucks, work vans, car size, different wheelbases, leg room, head room, passenger capacity, rear storage capacity, auto trans or stick shift, compared quality, warranty, etc, etc, etc,.

Instead of going into detail as would be necessary to give him the knowledge he needs, what "simple answer" (that would be short and uncomplicated), would you be able to tell him that would give him the knowledge he needs that would not be a complicated and by necessity a long answer in order to give him a crash course that would be sufficient for him to have enough knowledge to make an informed decision of which car he should buy?

Without being able to give him all those details and more, how do you expect him to be sufficiently answered by you in order for him to make an informed decision as to what his first car should be?

Would you just tell him "Buy this one" without telling him in somewhat complicated (but necessary) detail your reasons you recommended that car, and would you not give him any complicated (but necessary) detail regarding other car options for him?

Same thing. It may appear at first to be a simple question, but since it in fact does require a detailed and complicated answer, it really isn't a simple question after all. But one that in order to answer properly requires a lot of thought and a detailed and complicated answer by necessity.

Or you could just tell the OP to "Buy a steel frame or stainless Uberti 1858 Remington in .44 cal" and not told him the reasons why you recommend that and not tell him about any other BP revolver options. But is that a proper answer in order for him to know "why?" and to gain knowledge?



.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; July 14, 2013 at 07:24 AM.
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Old July 14, 2013, 07:57 AM   #50
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Jeezus Christ on a stick.
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