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Old May 29, 2013, 03:17 PM   #26
Erno86
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I forgot to mention in my last post...that the index finger forward is used with an exaggerated extension of the hand on the frontal portion of the weapon's forend.

I use multiple offhand stances for my shooting training with a rifle. I'll have to disagree with Swat's, Louis Awerbuck {The Lemming Factor, Training and Tactics, September 2010} "the trick is to determine which system works best for you and stick with it."

Their should be no single system or technique for offhand shooting. Each confrontation...might require a different offhand shooting shooting grip or stance --- as in a different grip in order to control recoil with multiple fast shot's --- or a different style that might require a precision long range offhand shot; as in triangulated skeletal bone support.

If you just grip the vertical foregrip... have one of your friends come over and grip the forend, and have him rotate the rifle back and forth. Now try Magpul's "thumb over" technique...and let him try to rotate the rifle. You'll find that the "thumb over" is a much firmer grip. It is also much easier to lock your wrist, with the thumb over grip.

You'll need to get the proper muscle sets for offhand shooting. Start off with 75 reps a night --- by raising an lowering a heavy rifle with your support hand --- with the butt of the rifle against your shoulder.

For most of my rifle and pistol shooting...I use Cylinder & Slide's nylon shooting strap --- with a slight pull forward on my support arm and hand --- while shooting offhand with a rifle. You'll find that you can hold the rifle against your shoulder for a long time without tiring. The Navy Seals, use a similar bungee cord system around there necks. The only thing that the sling does not prevent...is a flinch; though someone can come up behind you and garotte you with the sling around your neck.
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Last edited by Erno86; May 29, 2013 at 03:25 PM.
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Old May 29, 2013, 04:37 PM   #27
UtopiaTexasG19
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In my case the grip depends on which AR I am currently shooting and how much "stuff" I have on the rail, in other words how much weight forward is present. My "long range" AR has a scope and bi-pod on the end of the rail so I use the cupped under position for my weak hand about 2/3 rd's down the barrel when standing. I tried the magwell position with this AR and it has too much weight forward and I get tired too soon. My other AR was built as light as possible and grabbing the magwell works best for me with that set up.
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Old May 29, 2013, 06:10 PM   #28
ThatBeardedGuy
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As has been pointed out, this isn't really Magpul's technique, though I suppose they're responsible for bringing it back to the fore.

It's just not a comfortable setup for me, and despite all I hear about it being great for lateral targeting at close range, I just don't like having my arm out that far. It feels sluggish.

Also, this is really only a technique for AR-pattern rifles and similar setups like the SCAR or ACR, whereas all rifles are designed to be supported palm-under. Once I pick up the Tavor SAR, I'll probably mount a short vertical grip and call it good enough.
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Old May 30, 2013, 08:58 AM   #29
doofus47
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This thread has been very informative for me.

I'm sort of self-taught in the AR field. I usually just adapted my other rifle shooting techniques to the platform:
I put my left hand beneath the foregrip and I chicken wing my right elbow out 90 degrees from my butt stock.
The difference is that I usually take up my sling in my left hand and pull the rifle tight to my shoulder.

The hand over technique looks odd to me, so I never tried it, but I have never shot for speed. Maybe when/if I find more AR ammo, I"ll give this a go.
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Old May 30, 2013, 04:08 PM   #30
jrothWA
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For over the course, ...

us the mag support for standing then grasp forarm when doing Sustained fire @ 200 & 300, with secong mag @ the base of the trigger arm elbow. For 600, the same just single load the rounds.

All done the same on: 1917 Enfield, M1 Garand, M1A & AR15
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Old May 30, 2013, 09:30 PM   #31
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All this (holding the AR like a firehose) is something that I never saw even once during the 80s-90s-2000. I have never considered a AR to have any real recoil and I still hold the AR by the magwell.
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Old May 31, 2013, 01:38 AM   #32
Justice06RR
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Personally I've never took the liking to the thumb-over technique that most competition shooters use. It does look "cool" and I can see its purpose in competition, but its not ideal for everyone esp your casual range shooter or your military infantryman. The over-extension of your arms will make your limbs tired quicker during longer shooting, esp if you have to lug around a full-loadout of mags and gear for an entire day on your person.

Obviously competition shooters run stages in very short bursts and have breaks in between stages. They usually have lightweight rifles for this purpose, so this works well for them. When I do 3-gun there is plenty of breaks in between stages as you move from stage to stage, and take turns between shooters. We have "gun carts" to lug our gear which makes it convenient. In a real world scenario for a soldier on duty or a civilian hunting all day in the woods, its not ideal IMO.


I normally hold it under the middle of the handguard with a vfg/afg, and sometimes on the magwell.
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Old May 31, 2013, 10:24 AM   #33
Ben Dover
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For normal shooting, I hold it the same way as any other pistol grip carbine.

For close quarters practice, I tuck the butt stock under my armpit, and slide my off hand as far forward I can on the hand guard, with my off hand over the top (palm down, thumb under the forward hand guard)

This gives great leverage if the gun is grabbed.
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Old June 2, 2013, 07:58 AM   #34
thump_rrr
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Thumb over on my 18" 3 gun rig.
Magpul AFG grip on my 14.5".
Magwell on my 11".
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Old June 3, 2013, 07:02 AM   #35
whitefeathersniper
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Having trouble picturing this thumb over technique. Is that with your thumb joined with the rest of your hand so that you have a bend in your wrist?

I have held my M16 with the fore end resting in my palm with index finger kinda pointing forward and thumb separate from the fingers. And it was just ahead of the magwell.
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Old June 4, 2013, 02:56 AM   #36
shaunpain
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I'm a magwell guy myself. In the AR platform, if a catastrophic case failure is experienced, you should be good to go. The gases usually ride down the magwell so as long as your hand isn't at the bottom of the mag itself, you shouldn't get hurt. I fire all rifles while standing with no sling support this way. Things change when I use a two point sling supporting hold. I will use the thumb over technique because it is more comfortable to hold the rifle that way with the sling and feels rock solid. It just simply isn't comfortable (my LOP is rather short, I'm a smaller guy) to thumb over in free standing with no sling.
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Old June 4, 2013, 03:26 AM   #37
Justice06RR
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Quote:
Having trouble picturing this thumb over technique. Is that with your thumb joined with the rest of your hand so that you have a bend in your wrist?
something like this I believe.



Although I think this below would generally suffice. The one above is an awkward hold for most shooters.


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Old June 4, 2013, 08:38 PM   #38
Ben Towe
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I personally don't like the thumb over grip. It just feels weird. If you have a quad rail it makes it even more uncomfortable.
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Old June 5, 2013, 08:23 PM   #39
The Great Mahoo
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How do YOU hold an ar-15?

I put an AB arms forend on mine and just hold it in the grip slot. I also put a verticals grip at the front, but don't find myself using it much. However, the set up is still new and hasn't seen much use, but so far I like it.

Not the beat pic, but here it is with my Mini14. ImageUploadedByTapatalk1370481813.392805.jpg
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Old June 30, 2013, 03:18 PM   #40
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I don't have an AR but I have other rifles and use(d) different stances depneding on the situation.
In the standing, slow fire, precision disciplines I put my support hand under the mag and left elbow in my left side, right elbow down on my right, upper body canted backwards. Not very comfortable but the only way to hit the target at 100m with my Enfield.
For short range and more dynamic shooting I use the Magpul-like grip with the left hand extended forward, thumb forward or over the top of the forearm. It works well with semi-auto rifles and even my lever-action, shooting steel plates and such.

If reaching forward with your support hand tires you that's nature's way of telling you to work out. Well, at least for me it was.
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Old June 30, 2013, 10:05 PM   #41
SVTCobra306
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I use a version of the thumb-over grip out of muscle memory, but my hand is farther back just forward of the release ring for the forward hand grip. Keeping it back there helps force me to keep my left elbow tucked better so I don't pull shots to the left. When I use a VFG I also put it back as far as I comfortably can.. I stand square to the target, again force of habit from training in the Army while wearing a SAPI plate.. and you WANT to get hit in the plate if you are wearing one, they do work, I've seen it happen.
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Old July 2, 2013, 09:50 AM   #42
g.willikers
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Here's a video on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO2qy-lMDTg
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Old July 9, 2013, 09:28 PM   #43
Mezzanine
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Depends on the rifle. I never grip a rifle magpul style, i can see the competition advantages but thats about all. The only difference in a standing position is if i stand square to the target (stance you learn in basic) or shooting across my body (how most people shoot rifles). And this is dictated by rifle weight/length of pull/balance.
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Old July 9, 2013, 11:00 PM   #44
BornToLooze
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I don't have an AR, but I've always shot my AK and every other rifle the normal way



I tried holding it by the magwell but it's too awkward, and holding an AK the thumb over way is a a bad idea.
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Old July 10, 2013, 03:52 PM   #45
Erno86
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BTL - Can you tell me why the "thumb-over" is a "bad idea" for an AK?

If you shoot enough consecutive rapid fire rounds with an AK...you'll probably hold your support hand on the magazine --- because the forearm will be to hot too hold. Did you see the YouTube video: AK catches fire? No...that's not me in the video.

I've never shot my AR's rapid fire enough --- for my support hand --- to be to hot too hold on the forearm. Has anybody had such an experience? Anyway...a good pair of tactical gloves, will always be a help in hot barrel forearm hold situations.

Cheers,

Erno
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Old July 10, 2013, 07:31 PM   #46
raimius
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When unsupported, I go thumb over and forefinger pointing towards the target. If I have a vertical grip, my ring and pinky fingers will be on the vertical grip as a reference point for consistency (pseudo AFG).

If I have to keep an unsupported stance for a long time, I might gradually move back to a thumb under grip closer to the mag-well to fight fatigue. (Need to work on the upper body strength a bit. )
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Old July 11, 2013, 08:07 AM   #47
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I just don't see any need to hold an AR-pattern rifle any differently than any other rifle - which, for me, is hand on the forearm, under the barrel. I see no particular advantage inherent to any other technique.
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Old July 13, 2013, 04:53 PM   #48
raimius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Dover
For normal shooting, I hold it the same way as any other pistol grip carbine.

For close quarters practice, I tuck the butt stock under my armpit, and slide my off hand as far forward I can on the hand guard, with my off hand over the top (palm down, thumb under the forward hand guard)

This gives great leverage if the gun is grabbed.
What kind of accuracy do you get with that?
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