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Old July 8, 2013, 02:58 PM   #101
Archie
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Empty chamber is safer?

Not in my experience.

One of the chief rules of gun handling is to always presume the weapon is loaded and ready to fire. ("Treat all guns as loaded...")

During the Vietnam War (conflict, action, dust up - whatever) troops not in garrison carried personal weapons (rifles, submachineguns and pistols) loaded at all times until back at their 'home', when all was unloaded. One of the higher echelon commanders decided this was 'dangerous' and issued an order that troops under arms in convoy would stop prior to entering a 'friendly' zone and unload all weapons, transit the 'friendly' zone and then reload upon departing the zone. Accidental discharges (substitute whatever adjective you prefer) tripled. Other than presenting the weapon with the intention of firing, loading and unloading a weapon is the most dangerous action one can perform.

On the other hand, leaving a weapon loaded is a known risk. However, it is a 'known' risk, in that the armed party is aware - presumably watchful - of the risk.

A house gun is a firearm designated to be used in the event of emergency requiring deadly force. I find keeping such a weapon inert under such conditions to be counter productive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manta49
No round in the chamber no chance of a N/D simple.
Far too many negligent or unintentional discharges happen as a result of 'unloaded' firearms for my taste.

Okay, we're all big kids here. You will all make up your own minds. I urge two considerations on this matter:

1. Make up your own mind for your own reasons. Don't slavishly do what some other 'authority' (including me) says. YOU will be the one answering for the results, either way.

2. Whatever you decide to do, commit yourself to a 'standing operating procedure' and always, always, always do it the same way. An emergency is a surprise by definition, one does not need another surprise to compound the matter.
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Old July 8, 2013, 03:41 PM   #102
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Quote:
Far too many negligent or unintentional discharges happen as a result of 'unloaded' firearms for my taste.
Not really it happens with firearms that people think are unloaded. If you don't put a bullet in the chamber in the first place and do what you should do every time you lift a firearm and check its unloaded then it shouldn't happen. I also assume that when you were unloading the firearm that it was unloaded in a safe direction on into a bullet trap. So if their is a N/D no one should get hurt.

Quote:
1. Make up your own mind for your own reasons. Don't slavishly do what some other 'authority' (including me) says. YOU will be the one answering for the results, either way.
I agree with that its the ones that say its their way or no way that I have the problem with.

PS If I was in Vietnam or any other war zone I would be carrying with a round in the chamber in the circumstances I think the benefit of having a round in the chamber outweigh the N/D issues. But a normally peaceful area in America is not a war zone or Vietnam.

Most armies that I am aware of still require soldiers to unload when on base for good reasons. From experience here soldiers over the 30 tears of a terrorist campaign had to unload in a safe area before going into base so you are talking hundreds of thousands of unloads and not one soldier injured while unloading.

Last edited by manta49; July 8, 2013 at 03:53 PM.
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Old July 8, 2013, 04:36 PM   #103
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Most armies that I am aware of still require soldiers to unload when on base for good reasons.
Here's some food for thought. One of the members here posted a while back how when clearing their guns to go into the mess hall, which requires dropping a mag, clearing the chamber, and pointing your gun into a bucket of sand to dry fire, that a superior officer had 2 negligent discharges. He failed to drop his mag, racked the slide, pointed and fired. A second time, without dropping the mag, he racked the slide, pointed the gun, and fired. Both times he did not actually mean to fire his weapon, the member noted that this particular solider was a higher up who almost never handled a weapon on a daily basis. He had 2 negligent discharges in a matter of a few seconds because of the ridiculous policy of soldiers having to unload their weapons when on base. Those negligent discharges would not have happened otherwise.
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Old July 8, 2013, 05:06 PM   #104
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Quote:
He had 2 negligent discharges in a matter of a few seconds because of the ridiculous policy of soldiers having to unload their weapons when on base. Those negligent discharges would not have happened otherwise
I would say he had N/D-S because he did not follow procuders plain and simple. Everyone has to unload their firearm at some stage it wasn't the policy that was at fault it was the individual's fault. Do you think their would be no incidents if soldiers did not unload and carried their firearm around the base with a round in the chamber.? There are no excuses for N/D-S I for one would not be making excuses for soldiers that have them as you seem to be.
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Old July 8, 2013, 05:55 PM   #105
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Double Post

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Old July 8, 2013, 05:59 PM   #106
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Your argument was that leaving a gun with no round in the chamber when you are not using it cuts down on negligent discharges, and you used military protocol as an example several times. The fact that they are forced to constantly load and unload there guns resulted in a negligent discharge. If that gun just stayed holstered with a round in the chamber at all times until they actually need to pull it out and use it then I cant see how a negligent discharge would happen in the first place.
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Old July 8, 2013, 06:32 PM   #107
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Keeping an empty chamber does not equal treating guns like they are unloaded. Least not here. Bullet setback is way down my list of concerns vs. me sleeping a little too soundly and my 5 year old forgetting the rules and playing with my highly tactical C&L carry piece sitting on the table. So, off my body, not chambered with a very few exceptions.
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Old July 8, 2013, 07:50 PM   #108
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query

my star bm stay's cocked and locked full mag with a full spare .no kid's here when they do come over they are locked up .
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Old July 8, 2013, 08:08 PM   #109
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I will not bother reading all of the responses to this thread. The simple answer is yes, it needs to be chambered. Why in the world would you not have your primary or secondary HD weapon ready to go at a moments notice? If you have the forethought to have a HD weapon then you need to pull your head out of your you know what and know that if it's not chambered you may as well have nothing at all. My HD weapons go to the range for training purposes and come home empty to be cleaned immediately. I do not chamber and un chamber rounds. If their is a round chambered the only way it will come out is if it clears the muzzle. If you have to ask the question or don't feel safe with a 100% loaded weapon in your house then you should just get a dog and hope for the best.
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Old July 8, 2013, 10:57 PM   #110
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Quote:
I will not bother reading all of the responses to this thread.
Don't do it, it will just make you frustrated
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Old July 8, 2013, 11:25 PM   #111
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Quote:
...my 5 year old forgetting the rules and playing with my highly tactical C&L carry piece sitting on the table.
I HIGHLY recommend against relying on an empty chamber as a child safety device. Completely unloading the firearm and locking up the ammunition is one thing. It's a mistake to assume that a child won't be able to figure out how to chamber a round. Kids are surprisingly ingenious. I remember someone telling/writing that their kid figured out how to brace the rear sight against a table edge and then leaned into the gun to operate the slide.
Quote:
Two more good reasons to use the Israeli method.
As pointed out numerous times, chambering a round is problematic if you have only one hand available for the job.

Second, in the data I recorded from "1000 round reliability matches" it was apparent that a semi-automatic handgun is significantly more likely to misfeed when a round is being manually chambered than when it is being fired.

In other words, leaving the chamber unloaded not only makes it slower and more difficult to bring the gun into action when required, it also makes it very difficult to bring it into action while holding a light, fending off an attacker or with a wounded hand--anytime the person has only one hand available. Finally, even under the best of circumstances it requires a relatively malfunction-prone operation to be performed under emergency conditions.
Quote:
So if their is a N/D no one should get hurt.
If you've ever had a gun discharged nearby while you're not wearing hearing protection--especially indoors--you won't ever make a statement like that again. Not only does it hurt, I can tell you from experience, it can impair you for life.
Quote:
...and do what you should do every time you lift a firearm and check its unloaded then it shouldn't happen.
If people do what they should do every time they handle firearms then no "and" is necessary.

You don't have to "do what you should do" AND leave the chamber empty--you just have to "do what you should do" period.

If a chambered round in a home-defense gun is considered an unacceptable risk from the standpoint of NDs, I suggest that the gun be fully loaded and then locked in a secure but rapidly accessible safe. This eliminates the need for chambering a round in an emergency, a relatively error-prone process, and incurs little or no time penalty compared to retrieving a chamber empty gun and then having to load it before engaging.

Finally, if the goal is eliminating NDs then increasing firearm manipulation with ammuniton involved is counter-productive. In other words, pick a condition, chamber loaded or chamber empty and stick with it. Constantly loading and unloading the gun is going to increase the chances of an ND not reduce them.
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Old July 9, 2013, 12:29 AM   #112
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Quote:
I HIGHLY recommend against relying on an empty chamber as a child safety device. Completely unloading the firearm and locking up the ammunition is one thing. It's a mistake to assume that a child won't be able to figure out how to chamber a round. Kids are surprisingly ingenious. I remember someone telling/writing that their kid figured out how to brace the rear sight against a table edge and then leaned into the gun to operate the slide.
I don't. As far as the child safety device, it's not, it's another failsafe if normal procedures fall through.
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Old July 9, 2013, 06:27 AM   #113
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I always have one in the chamber in my carry pistol and in my pistol on the night stand.
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Old July 9, 2013, 08:23 AM   #114
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Quote:
I've got a 1911 (clone) and am fairly new to handguns so excuse my ignorance but I did a search and got kind of mixed results. Is it okay to lock my 1911 in my quick access box cocked and locked or should I leave it unloaded with a loaded mag in the box next to it?
If it's holstered and in a quick access safe it should be fine. My HD gun (not a 1911) is always chambered as is my CCW.

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Old July 9, 2013, 08:29 AM   #115
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Quote:
its the ones that say its their way or no way that I have the problem with.
OK.

Everyone who feels it's "My way or no way" please raise your hand.

Everyone who feels they're being forced to carry their 1911 in a way that they don't want to, raise your hand.

For heaven's sake. There's disagreements of opinions. That's a problem, how exactly?


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Old July 9, 2013, 08:31 AM   #116
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Quote:
If you've ever had a gun discharged nearby while you're not wearing hearing protection--especially indoors--you won't ever make a statement like that again. Not only does it hurt, I can tell you from experience, it can impair you for life.
Yes I have but I was talking more about bullets hitting someone, It happened to me at the range when I forgot to put on my ear defenders nothing to do with a N/D.

Quote:
Everyone who feels it's "My way or no way" please raise your hand.

Everyone who feels they're being forced to carry their 1911 in a way that they don't want to, raise your hand.

For heaven's sake. There's disagreements of opinions. That's a problem, how exactly?
I have no problem getting advice I have a problem when some think they know it all. PS I am not referring to you. And tell someone that if you are not comfortable doing it their way that you need further training etc without knowing the background or the training of the person. I will give my view but I woint be saying its right its just my view.

Quote:
manta - Unrelated to this topic, I see you're in N Ireland. Would you care to describe what kind of ranges, gun laws etc you have there? I imagine it's different than in the US.
Busy at this time will be happy to reply to your question later.

Last edited by manta49; July 9, 2013 at 08:45 AM.
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Old July 9, 2013, 08:36 AM   #117
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manta - Unrelated to this topic, I see you're in N Ireland. Would you care to describe what kind of ranges, gun laws etc you have there? I imagine it's different than in the US.

Perhaps appropriate for a different section of the forum. I'm not sure exactly which.


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Old July 9, 2013, 12:39 PM   #118
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Quote:
manta - Unrelated to this topic, I see you're in N Ireland. Would you care to describe what kind of ranges, gun laws etc you have there? I imagine it's different than in the US.
•In total, there are 153,459 legally held weapons owned by people living in Northern Ireland.
•Some of the licence holders with the largest gun holdings have paintball games among their licence conditions. This includes eight people who own between 150 and 175 firearms each. Their police districts are G and F in the west of Northern Ireland.
•Of the 59,585 licence holders we have detailed information on, 98% are male.
•The youngest gun owner is 17-years-old and the oldest is 103.
•A total of 2,924 licenses have ‘Personal Protection Weapon’ among the conditions of use. These holders include ex-PSNI, civilians and prison officers.

Example of a club here. . Northern Ireland Target Sports Association: NITSA



www.nitsa.org.uk/‎


East Antrim Rifle & Pistol Club | Target Shooting Ballyclare - EARPC ...



www.earpc.co.uk/

You have to be in a club to get a handgun Rifles AK/47 M/4 Single shot only no mag restrictions on any firearms. Sound moderators easily available for rifles.
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Old July 9, 2013, 04:16 PM   #119
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Ummm...

*raises hand*

Mantra, you're the only one that seems to be preporting that you're way is the best/only way.

Knock on wood, I've never had an ND/AD. I have had a loaded pistol next to my bed since I was 16. After I learned my lesson the hard way about keeping house guns unloaded, I have kept them fully loaded and ready to go. The only one that requires more then pulling the trigger to go bang is the 1911A1.
I don't have kids, weird roommates, issues with night terrors or doing weird things in my sleep. I live in the woods and generally would have a decent warning period before someone got in the house. There is no reason for me, as far as I can see, not to keep my XD loaded with a round in the chamber at all time. I know what condition it's in and my Dad knows, plus we both know how to check if we arn't sure and nobody else is welcome inside who wouldn't know how to safely clear the weapon if they wanted to fool with it.

I can see reasons for keeping the chamber empty, like as an extra precation in case small child forgets the rules about the guns in the house, or being an erratic sleeper. However, I don't see it as the only way, nor as the best way to keep a house gun, or any gun used for SD.
As my Dad taught me, if you have it, you have it loaded and that's that.
I think if you are habitual about following the four rules and KNOWING the condition of any gun you handle and assuming that unless you have personally cleared the weapon that it is loaded and should be treated as such, then you shouldn't have any NDs, now should you?
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Old July 9, 2013, 04:44 PM   #120
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Quote:
The only one that requires more then pulling the trigger to go bang is the 1911A1.
That is how the majority of N/D-S are caused people pulling the trigger, you can't take the human factor out of it.

Quote:
Mantra, you're the only one that seems to be preporting that you're way is the best/only way.
I have not said one way is better than the other I have put my view inviting discussion. I have also said people should make up their own minds on what way to carry.
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Old July 9, 2013, 07:39 PM   #121
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Quote:
That is how the majority of N/D-S are caused people pulling the trigger, you can't take the human factor out of it.
Which is why you always follow the four rules and assume any gun you handle is loaded until you clear it yourself.

You can cut down on a lot of NDs/ADs by being contientious and safe. It's why we have safety rules to begin with.

This isn't a matter of weither or not you keep a round in the chamber. This is a matter of safe gun handling, which should be maintained regardless of the condition of your weapons.
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Old July 10, 2013, 11:53 AM   #122
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Totally personal decision; mine is to have my 1911 cocked and locked at all times.
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Old July 10, 2013, 02:28 PM   #123
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Quote:
This isn't a matter of weither or not you keep a round in the chamber. This is a matter of safe gun handling, which should be maintained regardless of the condition of your weapons.
If their is no round in the chamber it is impossible to have a N/D guns don't shoot without bullets.
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Old July 10, 2013, 03:25 PM   #124
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Quote:
If their is no round in the chamber it is impossible to have a N/D guns don't shoot without bullets
Then by all means, don't ever have a round in the chamber. Problem solved. I'm really not sure who you're trying to convince. Your way works for you. I think we're all over abundantly clear on that at this point.


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Old July 10, 2013, 08:49 PM   #125
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Actually, they don't shoot with just bullets either.

You have to have a spark and charge as well. For modern firearms, that means it requires an entire cartredge.

I don't care what condition you keep your personal firearms in, any complacency regarding safety procedure is super bad major no no.
The main part of this whole "can't have N/D if you never have a round in the chamber" arguement, is the implication of complacency in regards to safety. Most NDs, in my experiance (to wit, my Dad who's had a few over the course of many years) involve someone being in the process of loading or unloading a gun and getting sloppy. Telling yourself that "I can't have an ND because there is no round in the chamber!!1!" is a good way to teach yourself to get sloppy.

Round in or no round in, you can have an ND if your messing with a gun and ammunition at the same time.
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