The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 9, 2013, 02:24 AM   #26
alex0535
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 781
SgtLumpy mentioned shot tracing technology.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...ith-audio-tech

Can pinpoint the shot to a 25 meter circle, close enough to get an address.

I used to live in a not so great area of Atlanta, and on the 4th of july the neighborhood sounded like a war zone. I am not talking about a few random shots, I am talking about hundreds of shots fired. Some were close, some were far, but I am pretty sure most of them were aimed at the sky and all of them had to land somewhere. It was nights like that made me happy I lived in a brick house.

Last edited by alex0535; July 9, 2013 at 02:29 AM.
alex0535 is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 04:49 PM   #27
Slopemeno
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,350
That's a tradition I don't hear too much of anymore- happily.
Slopemeno is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 05:19 PM   #28
deepcreek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 320
I have been in Central American cities during holidays where people start shooting in the air. People just walk out into the street and empty a mag at the sky.

One night on feliz navidad at midnight I just heard constant rounds along with non stop fireworks as the noise started to die down I could hear objects raining down and hitting the roof, it was just tin on rafters so we climbed under the bed.
deepcreek is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 06:53 PM   #29
ProShooter
Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2009
Location: Richmond, Va.
Posts: 86
This really is a sad situation. I just did an interview yesterday with the local news channel about it.

I really hope the guilty party steps forward.
__________________
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
Utah Concealed Firearms Certified Instructor
SABRE Pepper Spray CSAP Instructor
www.ProactiveShooters.com
ProShooter is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 09:36 PM   #30
wet
Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2011
Location: ID.
Posts: 89
I think that to dismiss the danger of falling objects is a mistake. In vietnam we dropped what we called lawn darts. They were I think mark 44's loaded with little metal bulet shaped bombs, no explosives, about 1 1/2 to 2 inches long, about 1/2 inch diameter. They were devistating to ground personel. Navy fighters would drop them on suspected vietcong hiding in the jungle. They would go through a army helmet and kill the guy wearing it.
wet is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 10:44 PM   #31
Gbnk82
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 288
Its sad this happened and very unfortunate..statistics say most bullets fired straight up lose so much velocity on the way down they are no longer deadly..this is a very sad and unfortunate event and this gives resposible gun owners a bad name...i shot my gun on the 4th also but i shot at a target..

As the rule says always know your target and whats behind it..a shot in the air while most of the time is harmless is still breaking that rule and can result in these sort of horrible things..always know your target.
Gbnk82 is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 10:57 PM   #32
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,212
Quote:
wet posted
I think that to dismiss the danger of falling objects is a mistake. In vietnam we dropped what we called lawn darts. They were I think mark 44's loaded with little metal bulet shaped bombs, no explosives, about 1 1/2 to 2 inches long, about 1/2 inch diameter. They were devistating to ground personel. Navy fighters would drop them on suspected vietcong hiding in the jungle. They would go through a army helmet and kill the guy wearing it.
I'm definitely not dismissing the danger; shooting in the air is a terribly dangerous thing to do. However, a bullet dropped out of a plane or shot straight up in the air will not come down with enough force to kill someone under normal circumstances.

Those "lawn darts" that were dropped in Vietnam were specifically designed to stay straight and reach a much higher terminal velocity than a bullet alone could ever reach.

What makes firing a bullet into the air so dangerous is that it's easy to fire it at enough of an angle that the bullet still maintains some of its initial velocity and rotation so that it still has enough power to kill on the way back down to earth.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 11:35 PM   #33
Frasier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2011
Posts: 190
Wasn't it VP Biden that told people to fire two shots in the air?
Frasier is offline  
Old July 9, 2013, 11:51 PM   #34
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,423
Quote:
However, a bullet dropped out of a plane or shot straight up in the air will not come down with enough force to kill someone under normal circumstances.
As with many topics along these lines the problem is that it's not as simple as most people believe.

A bullet dropped out of a plane duplicates one of the three potential scenarios that need to be considered. I agree that a bullet dropped out of a plane is fairly unlikely to have lethal potential, but even if we consider only the case where a bullet is fired perfectly straight upward, there are still two scenarios which differ significantly in lethal potential.

Scenario 1. The bullet is fired upwards but at some angle from vertical--it doesn't really take much of an angle off true vertical for this scenario to work. In this case the bullet will come down nose first with some retained muzzle velocity as well as velocity imparted by gravity. The total velocity is significant and bullets that fall into this scenario definitely have lethal potential.

Scenario 2. The bullet is fired straight, or nearly straight upwards and comes almost straight back down. In this case the bullet achieves terminal velocity but retains no significant muzzle velocity. There are two possibilities for this scenario.

Scenario 2A. The bullet remains spin stabilized and falls base first. This has been demonstrated by Hatcher's experimentation to happen with some rifle bullets. In this case, terminal velocity can be in the 300-400fps range because the spin-stabilized bullet falling base first is relatively aerodynamic. Impact energy is in the 30ftlb range which did not impress Hatcher much, but is well above the typical pellet gun energy levels. Sadly there are news stories that prove on a fairly regular basis that even the typically anemic pellet gun can be lethal to humans.

Scenario 2B. The bullet destabilizes and tumbles as it falls back to earth. This has been demonstrated by Hatcher to occur with some rifle bullets and by Mythbusters to occur with the pistol bullets they tested. Mythbusters was never able to recover any rifle bullets and did not test anything other than straight up shots so they provided absolutely no information on scenarios 1 or 2A. In this case, terminal velocity is around 150fps. I would not like to be hit by a tumbling bullet at 150fps, and I suppose it has some small potential to be lethal but it's not terribly likely to kill someone or even cause a significant injury.

It's not possible to tell without testing which scenario will be created with a "sky shot". It might be scenario 1 with guaranteed lethal potential, scenario 2A with a high likelihood of lethality or 2B which is fairly unlikely to be lethal. The only responsible answer is that one should never shoot a firearm upwards unless they can guarantee that the impact area is totally free of personnel.
Quote:
Wasn't it VP Biden that told people to fire two shots in the air?
Shotguns using birdshot are very different from centerfire rifles and pistols. While a rifle or pistol bullet has the potential to travel for a mile or more and still retain some lethality, birdshot is generally considered to be safe after it has traveled only some 400 yards downrange. Similarly, birdshot is such an inefficient projectile it has a very low terminal velocity and can not cause injury as it falls--although I wouldn't want to catch a falling pellet in the eye.

Conventional pellet guns with conventional pellets have a range similar to shotguns using birdshot and are generally considered safe with only a few hundred yards of safety area downrange.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old July 10, 2013, 12:15 AM   #35
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,212
I was not aware scenario 2A was probable. Luckily I gave myself an out when I said "under normal circumstances".
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old July 10, 2013, 12:59 AM   #36
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Just for comparison, 350 fps, from John's data above, is roughly equivalent to 250 MPH if my calculator is correct. I would have to imagine that a 100-200 gr projectile hurling at me at 250 MPH has a great deal of destructive energy available, no matter how it's shaped. And I don't think it would matter much where it hit. Skull, shoulder, arm, eyeball, it could all be devistating.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 10, 2013, 03:42 AM   #37
Powermwt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2000
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 269
I was a general contractor years ago, building large warehouses and manufacturing facilities. We built a 100,000+ sf building not far from an established neighborhood with what was then a new roof, PVC over a slip sheet and 1/2" 5 ply plywood.

Close to the end of the 1 year warranty on the building the owner complained of roof leaks and upon inspection over two dozen bullets were found to have penetrated the roofing. Most of these were handgun bullets... .25, .38 and .45 lead and jacketed with a couple of .22. All of these were embedded in the plywood but not thru it.

We had two holes that were thru the plywood with no bullet found. We speculated at the time it way have been rifle bullets as the holes measured close to .30 cal.

This was back in the 1980s but surprised me as to the amount of bullets we found in that one year of use and the fact that ~ 10% of the bullets had enough energy to put a hole thru the PVC roof, the slip sheet and 1/2" of plywood.

I remember as a kid out on our rural property shooting shot shells for 4th of July but I also remember not doing it with a pistol or rifle as I was taught that even a .22 could go 1 1/2 mile as that caution was printed on the box, if I remember correctly.

Simple as that... don't shoot in the air!
Powermwt is offline  
Old July 10, 2013, 11:34 AM   #38
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Quote:
We had two holes that were thru the plywood with no bullet found. We speculated at the time it way have been rifle bullets as the holes measured close to .30 cal.
Imagine opening your box of Cap'n Crunch or Cheerios (stored in that warehouse) and finding a jacketed boat tail.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 10, 2013, 12:18 PM   #39
royal barnes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2012
Location: Wendell, N.C.
Posts: 162
Aguila Blanca,
There is an even larger Amish community in Indiana.
royal barnes is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 12:24 PM   #40
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,534
Quote:
Mythbusters was never able to recover any rifle bullets and did not test anything other than straight up shots so they provided absolutely no information on scenarios 1 or 2A. In this case, terminal velocity is around 150fps. I would not like to be hit by a tumbling bullet at 150fps, and I suppose it has some small potential to be lethal but it's not terribly likely to kill someone or even cause a significant injury.
True, but the problem as I see it, is that most people are selfish and won't ever fire a gun straight up, as they don't want the bullet coming back on them, no matter what velocity has been stripped from it. They obviously don't even care about other people, let alone want to spend any brain power trying to calculate a ballistic arc. And like you, I would not care to be hit even by a spent bullet that is simply falling. To me this is NEVER a good thing, and I know several people that have done it. All have been told; only one has seen the light and stopped.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 12:44 PM   #41
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 1,241
I am probably repeating others here, but these “guns fired in the air are deadly" articles show up now and then and they are all anti-gun BS!

You see as we all (should) have learned in 2nd grade, all things fall at the same speed or less, not faster.

Larger objects fall at the same speed as small objects as long as there is no "sail area" to be affected by the air itself. That's why a man under a parachute falls slowly and one without a parachute falls fast.

If a bullet is fired straight up it comes to a complete stop and then falls to earth BASE FIRST. If however it’s fired at a low angle it can have forward momentum from its initial velocity, but that is not a "falling bullet" in the same way a bullet falls if it’s fired at a 65 degree or steeper angle.

An average bullet weighs less then a 1” hail stone.

I have been through about 10 hail storms in my life with hail of about 1", and 1” hail hurts a bit, but doesn’t even leave a welt for more then about 30 minutes.

Let’s use the brains God gave us and put a stop to this old lie.
Wyosmith is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 12:57 PM   #42
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,112
Quote:
In vietnam we dropped what we called lawn darts.

They were called "lazy dogs". "Lazy dogs" were first used during WWII over Germany. The first "lazy dogs" were .50 caliber machinegun bullets with glued on plastic fins. They cost too much.

The newer "lazy dogs" are about 1/2" in diameter and 1 1/2" long with an aerodynamic body and fins on the rear. Aircraft dispensers contained tens of thousands of the things. Dropped from altitudes of 10,000 feet or more they would penetrate a military helmet.

http://texastradingpost.com/militaria/lazydog.html
thallub is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 01:11 PM   #43
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,737
Wyo - did you read this part of JohnSKa's post:

Quote:
Scenario 1. The bullet is fired upwards but at some angle from vertical--it doesn't really take much of an angle off true vertical for this scenario to work. In this case the bullet will come down nose first with some retained muzzle velocity as well as velocity imparted by gravity. The total velocity is significant and bullets that fall into this scenario definitely have lethal potential.
Thus your statement:

Quote:
I am probably repeating others here, but these “guns fired in the air are deadly" articles show up now and then and they are all anti-gun BS!
is irrelevant as you cannot guarantee that all shots will be straight up.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 03:47 PM   #44
Tuzo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2007
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 725
Wyosmith

In response to your statement concerning the anti gun "BS" of falling bullets I copied these occurrences of deadly injuries from Wikipedia. The last referenced incident occurred in New Orleans - where I live - and it is not the only time a falling bullet killed or injured someone in the New Orleans area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebratory_gunfire

July 4, 2013: A 7-year old boy, Brendon Mackey, was struck in the top of his head while walking with his father shortly before 9 p.m. amid a large crowd prior to the fireworks display over the Swift Creek Reservoir. [21]
July 4, 2012: A 34-year woman, Michelle Packard, was struck in the head while watching the fireworks with her family. The police believe the shot could have come from a mile away.[22]
January 1, 2010: A four-year-old boy, Marquel Peters, was struck by a bullet inside his church The Church of God of Prophecy in Decatur, GA. It is presumed the bullet may have penetrated the roof of the church around 12:20AM, fatally wounding the boy.[23]
December 28, 2005: A 23-year-old U.S. Army private on leave after basic training fired a 9mm pistol into the air in celebration with friends, according to police, and one of the bullets came through a fifth-floor apartment window in the New York City borough of Queens, striking a 28-year-old mother of two in the eye. Her husband found her lifeless body moments later. The shooter had been drinking the night before and turned himself in to police the next morning when he heard the news. He was charged with second-degree manslaughter and weapons-related crimes,[24][25] and was later found guilty and sentenced to four to 12 years in prison.[26]
June 14, 1999: Arizona, A fourteen year-old girl, Shannon Smith, was struck on the top of her head by a bullet while in the backyard of her home, and was declared deceased a short time later. [27] This incident resulted in Arizona enacting "Shannon's Law" in 2000, that made the discharge of a firearm into the air illegal[28]
December 31, 1994: Amy Silberman, a tourist from Boston, was killed by a falling bullet from celebratory firing while walking on the Riverwalk in the French Quarter of New Orleans, Louisiana. The Police Department there has been striving to educate the public on the danger since then, frequently making arrests for firing into the air.

Comparing falling bullets to likewise, but innocently, falling hailstones, boulders, meteors, aircraft, and angels is not a fair comparison; they all have the potential to hurt, injure, or kill. Falling bullets are not the fodder of anti-gun advocates. They are the results of unthinking, uncaring, and reckless actions.
Tuzo is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 03:55 PM   #45
wet
Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2011
Location: ID.
Posts: 89
Thank you thallub, It's been 45 years and I do remember them being called lazy dog.
wet is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 04:34 PM   #46
redrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 834
The latest news on the boys death.

It was a .40 caliber and yesterday police detectives were going door to door in the area asking residents questions.
redrick is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 06:50 PM   #47
Dixie Gunsmithing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 851
It's a sad thing it happened, but it can happen, as it did to my 1st cousin's husband, when she was living in Baltimore. It was also on July, 4th, while they were sitting on their patio, that someone nearby shot into the air, and they saw them do it, and not but a small time later, her husband was struck, and died. The coroner, and BPD ruled it the same. That has been some time back, probably 20 years ago.

One would think that they would lose enough power to not do damage, but in this case, it didn't. However, if you've ever heard about dropping a penny off a skyscraper, and what damage it can do when it hits, as the farther it is up, the more velocity it gains as it falls. This happens at 32.2 feet per second, squared, in a vacuum. In this case, you still have friction from air, but if the object is designed to resist this friction, then it will move closer to falling in a vacuum. Plus, it has to do with just how high a certain round can be fired, before it slows and drops back to earth, and or if it tumbles.
Dixie Gunsmithing is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 07:51 PM   #48
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,466
Quote:
One would think that they would lose enough power to not do damage, but in this case, it didn't. However, if you've ever heard about dropping a penny off a skyscraper, and what damage it can do when it hits, as the farther it is up, the more velocity it gains as it falls. This happens at 32.2 feet per second, squared, in a vacuum. In this case, you still have friction from air, but if the object is designed to resist this friction, then it will move closer to falling in a vacuum. Plus, it has to do with just how high a certain round can be fired, before it slows and drops back to earth, and or if it tumbles.
I don't know of anywhere on earth that a bullet fired into the air from the ground that gains any sort of velocity on the way back to the earth. The object doesn't move closer to falling in a vacuum.

Your penny drop from a skyscraper is something of an urban myth. The penny does not gain more and more velocity with elevation after the point that it reaches terminal velocity. Terminal velocity for a penny is about 25-64 mph. 64 mph doesn't do much in the way of damage. Even at 100 mph, it doesn't have enough energy to really do much harm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHxvMLoKRWg
http://science.howstuffworks.com/sci...e-building.htm
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ny-dropped-off
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 09:19 PM   #49
Dixie Gunsmithing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 851
So you're saying that an object doesn't gain in velocity when falling, at 32.2 feet per second, squared? In other words, it doubles the speed every second, and that a bullet high in the air, would not hurt you?

I beg to differ, quote:

"Near the surface of the Earth, use g = 9.8 m/s² (meters per second squared; which might be thought of as "meters per second, per second", or 32 ft/s² as "feet per second per second"), approximately. For other planets, multiply g by the appropriate scaling factor. It is essential to use a coherent set of units for g, d, t and v. Assuming SI units, g is measured in meters per second squared, so d must be measured in meters, t in seconds and v in meters per second.

"In all cases, the body is assumed to start from rest, and air resistance is neglected. Generally, in Earth's atmosphere, this means all results below will be quite inaccurate after only 5 seconds of fall (at which time an object's velocity will be a little less than the vacuum value of 49 m/s (9.8 m/s² × 5 s), due to air resistance). When a body is traveling through any atmosphere other than a perfect vacuum it will encounter a drag force induced by air resistance, this drag force increases with velocity. The object will reach a state where the drag force equals the gravitational force at this point the acceleration of the object becomes 0, the object now falls at a constant velocity. This state is called the terminal velocity.

"The drag force is dependent on the density of the atmosphere, the coefficient of drag for the object, the velocity of the object (instantaneous) and the area presented to the airflow."

End quote.

Now, if a penny was dropped off the Sears tower, at 1729 feet tall, that is "526.9992 meters. It would take it 10.3671561044 seconds to fall, and would be traveling at 101.667071411 meters per second, after 10.3671561044 seconds on Earth. This is 366.00145708 kilometers per hour, and 227.422761747 miles per hour, or 333.5533838956001 FPS".


Now, you think an object traveling at 333.5 feet per second, small, where its mass is concentrated into striking a small area, will not hurt anyone, nor penetrate a skull? Plus, I would think a small cal. round from anything of any power would reach a height of maybe twice this, easily. At this, lets say 3000 feet, or 1000 yards, easily obtainable. That would be, 914.4 meters, so, 13.6559767512 seconds to fall, and at 482.109783866 kilometers per hour, and 299.56913119 miles per hour, or 439.36 FPS.

However, a 30-06 can travel to 10,000 feet, or 3048 meters. It would take it 24.9 seconds to fall, and be traveling at 546.2 MPH, or 801 FPS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatio...a_falling_body

and

http://www.gravitycalc.com/

Footnotes:
"It is assumed that the falling object in question has negligible mass.
It is assumed that the object started freefall on the surface of the body (i.e., the initial distance from the body's center of gravity was the radius of the body)
Mass and mean radius data from the NASA factsheet."

Last edited by Dixie Gunsmithing; July 13, 2013 at 09:29 PM.
Dixie Gunsmithing is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 09:49 PM   #50
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,423
Quote:
An average bullet weighs less then a 1” hail stone.
Terminal velocity is a function of drag which means that density figures heavily into the equation. A 1" hail stone has a much lower density than a bullet and therefore has a much lower terminal velocity.

By the way, the figures I provided in my post (velocities and energy levels) were from actual testing (bullets fired in the air) done by the U.S. army many years ago, not from simulations or calculations.
Quote:
So you're saying that an object doesn't gain in velocity when falling, at 32.2 feet per second, squared? In other words, it doubles the speed every second, and that a bullet high in the air, would not hurt you?
A falling object accelerates until the force of gravity equals the frictional drag of the object as it moves through the atmosphere. Then it will stop accelerating since the forces are balanced. The resulting velocity is called the terminal velocity and the object won't fall any faster than its terminal velocity no matter how much farther it falls. In fact, as it gets closer to the ground, the air density increases so it the terminal velocity will actually drop slightly as the object approaches impact.

A heavy, aerodynamic object will accelerate to a much higher terminal velocity than a light object that has poor aerodynamics. That's why a rock or a dart falls much faster than a leaf or a ball of paper.

From your quote, this is the critical piece of information you need to focus on:

"...all results below will be quite inaccurate after only 5 seconds of fall..."

Quote:
However, a 30-06 can travel to 10,000 feet, or 3048 meters. It would take it 24.9 seconds to fall, and be traveling at 546.2 MPH, or 801 FPS.
This is a good example. Since the object is falling much longer than 5 seconds, using the freefall velocity figures (freefall figures assume no atmospheric drag) are very inaccurate. Experimentation has shown that the terminal velocity of a .30-06 bullet is around 300-400fps if it remains spin stabilized and falls back to earth base first or is much lower--about 150fps--if it does not remain stabilized and falls back to earth tumbling.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15754 seconds with 9 queries