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Old July 5, 2013, 10:54 AM   #1
Don P
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Hot or Cold range

Question, at our range the RSO on duty is permitted to carry a hot/loaded firearm. We have been told that during a USPSA match that no loaded firearms are permitted to be carried by the RSO on duty that the entire range is to be a cold range. I cannot find it written anywhere in the rule book to verify this. Any help in black and white info will be appreciated
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Old July 5, 2013, 11:53 AM   #2
PawPaw
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The USPSA rules are here in .pdf format. A cursory reading doesn't shed any light on the issue, but in my experience, everyone at a USPSA match is supposed to have a cold handgun until they're in the shooting box and told to make ready.

The first time I went to a USPSA match, I was taken aback at how stringently they pressed safety, but I understand that not everyone at those matches is a professional. There are a lot of amateur, and a fair smattering of absolute newbies. We want to bring those guys along in the shooting sports, and safety is the best policy when we're dealing with firearms.

Sorry I didn't answer your question. Their range, their rules. I'm okay with that. When we go to my range, we can play by my rules.
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Old July 5, 2013, 04:47 PM   #3
Old Stony
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The first time I acted as a RSO and was checking firearms on the line, one guy turned toward me with his 1911 locked back. I glanced in to see the live round sitting in the chamber. These sort of things can happen so easily that I appreciate all the safety that can be possible at a range.
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:36 PM   #4
PawPaw
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Quote:
The first time I acted as a RSO and was checking firearms on the line, one guy turned toward me with his 1911 locked back. I glanced in to see the live round sitting in the chamber.
There's something wrong with that extractor, if the slide locks back and there's a round in the chamber.

But, back to the original question, I agree that safety should be stressed. However, I was taken aback because although my 1911 was unloaded, the hammer was back with the safety applied. The RO told me, gently, that the proper way to carry a 1911 on a USPSA range was safety off, hammer down. Pure Condition 4. I was a mite surprised, because I've been carrying a 1911 for nigh on 30 years and had never been told to carry in Condition Four. Still, it's his range and his rules. I've got no problem with that.

Our next shoot is July 20th and I intend to be there. Lots of fun on that range with those guys, even if they are wrapped just a little tight.
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Old July 6, 2013, 02:08 AM   #5
MarkDozier
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Quote:
But, back to the original question, I agree that safety should be stressed. However, I was taken aback because although my 1911 was unloaded, the hammer was back with the safety applied. The RO told me, gently, that the proper way to carry a 1911 on a USPSA range was safety off, hammer down. Pure Condition 4. I was a mite surprised, because I've been carrying a 1911 for nigh on 30 years and had never been told to carry in Condition Four. Still, it's his range and his rules.
He is entirely correct. USPSA is run on a cold range. You are confusing normal carry with what the USPSA requires.
USPSA runs on a cold range which means chamber empty, magazine out, hammer down and firearm holstered. This is the range protocol for everyone since it can be very hard to know between spectators and competetiors.
Yes it is his range, however the rules are USPSA.

There several rules covering this such as rule 5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked.


Chapter 8
Under Handgun Ready Conditions
Rule - 8.1.2.1 - Your hammer cocked and safety engaged indicates your handgun is in a ready to fire state.

rule 8.3.7 If clear hammer down, holster (your hammer was cocked or up)
so you are not in a clear condition


Mark - USPSA RSO
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Old July 6, 2013, 02:25 AM   #6
allaroundhunter
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Re: Hot or Cold range

Pawpaw, if you think that is wrapped tightly, if (while I'm serving as RO) I see someone carrying an XD with the cooked striker indicator back, I will have the person face a berm, show me an empty chamber, and then drop the striker.

That is how USPSA, IDPA, 3 gun and sports are run.

It seems as if the OP is being asked to serve as RO but wants to be able to keep his firearm loaded. I don't really see the reason for this. If he is competing then just leave it unloaded like all the other competitors. If he isn't competing, then why wear a gun in the first place? If I am just RO'ing a match and not shooting then I am not wearing all of my shooting gear. Texas weather is hot, and I will avoid extra weight however possible.
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Old July 6, 2013, 03:46 AM   #7
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Quote:
I was taken aback at how stringently they pressed safety
I'll second that. My first USPSA match was my last. Not so much because of they safety requirements but of the rudeness of how it was presented.

I was told to 'drop the hammer' to which I replied 'its a glock it doesn't have one' not understanding what he meant in the moment. I was then disqualified for the day.

I've never met a more rude or unfriendly group of shooters. I'll just go shoot at a range myself atleast there I enjoy using up my bullets.
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Old July 6, 2013, 06:39 AM   #8
WESHOOT2
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safety first

Perhaps the rudeness you encountered was simply mirrored?

I most highly recommend trying a different USPSA club to see if you encounter once again rudeness.
Or another DQ.......




FWIW, I have shot as a stranger with USPSA clubs in Vermont, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, Indiana, and South Carolina.
I have shot USPSA matches since 1995, well over two hundred.
Once, once I was treated poorly (oddly, that club no longer exists).
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Old July 6, 2013, 07:52 AM   #9
PawPaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
Still, it's his range and his rules. I've got no problem with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkDozier
Yes it is his range, however the rules are USPSA.
I was using a semantic device in the interest of simplicity. Actually, it was our range, an LEO range owned by the local Sheriff's Office. We loan the range to the local USPSA club one Saturday a month, in the interest of the shooting sports. I've been a sworn LEO for thirty years and training on that range for over 20 years. Whenever we're running the range we consider all firearms to be Condition 1 all the time. Totally hot line. That's the reason I was taken aback. The idea of carrying a gun, especially on that range, in Condition 1 was completely foreign to me. I had never considered such a proposition.

But, hey! It's okay. I understand what they're trying to do, which is make sure that everyone is totally safe. I get it.
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Old July 6, 2013, 08:08 AM   #10
kraigwy
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It's not unique to USPSA, it's common to most completion. Hammer down also means striker. After showing clear and dropping the slide you pull the trigger while pointing down range so that if there is a screw up and some how a round is in the chamber it goes off while pointed in a safe direction.

It's not being rude, it's being safe and that's the job of the safety officer, making sure the gun is safe before you leave the line.
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Old July 6, 2013, 08:35 AM   #11
Jim Watson
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I am sorry Venom met a snotty bunch. There was no reason to disqualify him just because he did not understand that "drop the hammer" was equivalent to "drop the striker." But then we did not hear both sides of that discussion.

I have, as Paw relates, more or less gently gotten people to dryfire their pistols over misunderstood jargon.

One of the changes in IDPA rules this year is revision of the end of stage range commands to If Finished, Unload and Show Clear; If Clear, Close Slide; Pull the Trigger; Holster.

Nobody will have the opportunity to explain the difference between hammer and striker or the tendency to lower the hammer with a decocking lever instead of a dryfire. Pull the trigger.


I am kind of the opposite of PawPaw. Coming from a competition background, NRA, PPC, IPSC (before USPSA got to be a separate game) and IDPA, I have been dismayed by the behavior of supposedly well trained policemen and other armed government employees. Not to mention the horrors of the public range.

I see a lot of IDPA Safety Officers and USPSA Range Officers wearing their guns while officiating, even though the staff shot the match before the paying customers. I don't know why unless they want to be prepared to calibrate a falling target or just want to go armed at all times. But not with the gun actually loaded.
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Old July 6, 2013, 10:16 AM   #12
PawPaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson
I am kind of the opposite of PawPaw. Coming from a competition background, NRA, PPC, IPSC (before USPSA got to be a separate game) and IDPA, I have been dismayed by the behavior of supposedly well trained policemen and other armed government employees.
It's what we're accustomed to, I s'pose. I've never been uncomfortable on a Condition Four range, because I assume all my brethren are as highly trained as I am, but I'm not hesitant to call someone out who is being unsafe. We're all Safety Officers and I'll chew on someone who's not paying attention. I won't be gentle about it either. I'll call it like I see it and if the other guy gets his feelings hurt, he can get glad in the same shorts. I don't care.

The one thing that made me nervous on the USPSA range was that I was concerned I'd get DQ'd because I wasn't hyper-attuned to their rules. I'll get used to it, and my scores will improve, and as long as I'm having fun I'll keep coming. The entry fees support the club and I think it's worth supporting even though they're playing games.

One question: Can anyone call a cease-fire on a USPSA range, or is that solely the province of the match officers? I saw a problem at the last competition, but didn't say anything. No one got hurt, but if it had happened on a Condition Four range, lots of folks would have noticed and several folks would have called a Cease Fire.
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Old July 6, 2013, 10:42 AM   #13
allaroundhunter
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Re: Hot or Cold range

Pawpaw, where I shoot safety is everyone's business. The only time that I don't want others giving commands is to a shooter that I am in charge of. Think about it, if you are a shooter then you don't want to be hearing commands from multiple people at once, either.

Now, if it can wait a second (not an immediate emergency) then you should bring it to the attention of the RO, the score keeper, or even the match director and the matter will be taken care of.
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Old July 6, 2013, 01:26 PM   #14
Jim Watson
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I don't know what a "Condition Four Range" is, I presume from context that it is a "hot" range as advocated by some trainers.
Any road, a frequent announcement at IDPA matches is "You are all safety officers." Which means that anybody can call attention to an unsafe act. It does not mean that bystanders can peanut gallery the competition.
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Old July 6, 2013, 06:34 PM   #15
Venom1956
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Thank you for understanding. While I harbor no ill will to them I just struggled with the rules and behaviors going from what ill call 'practical' habits things I do in the real world to a bunch of rules I didn't know or understand I was invited by a friend a few days prior. Honestly the holstering was what I really struggled with just because my habit is to reholster it per real world.

I suppose I forgot to add the other reason I was put off was the round prior the timer guy stopped moving right in my path while I sprinted to make a shot from a better angle. Causing me to collide into him. I was reprimanded and that score was throw out. After which I stated I don't feel as this was my fault as I felt it was his error and he was to close. You don't see refs penalizing players when they get in the way.

But out of the thirty or so people in my group only about four spoke to me kindly or at all. There was no friendly gun talk about each others guns which I enjoy.

I think I will eventually try again but to take something someone loves and enjoys and make it that unenjoyable really ruined something I was quiet excited for.

But I do agree with whats said above. Their range their rules. I will say you have every right to question a rule you don't understand or find out why it is that way and in place in a calm professional manner after you comply. Better understanding equals less discourse. If for some reason you do not agree try and find somewhere else.
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Last edited by Venom1956; July 6, 2013 at 06:53 PM.
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Old July 7, 2013, 08:39 AM   #16
WESHOOT2
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Oh brother, most definitely try a different club.
Search here: www.USPSA.org



FWIW, I have been 'involved' with both LE and military personnel and their handguns, and there is NO correlation between their dedication to service and their handgun safety and usage skills.
Most, sadly, are bested in both by well-trained children.
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Old July 8, 2013, 06:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
I was told to 'drop the hammer' to which I replied 'its a glock it doesn't have one' not understanding what he meant in the moment. I was then disqualified for the day.
Did that club offer a "new shooter's meeting"? If not, the club failed. If so, did you go? They should have reviewed the range commands at the meeting. If you go again, make sure there is a new shooter's meeting and attend. If there is no such meeting, leave. "If clear, hammer down, holster" is a final safety check to be sure there really is not a round in the chamber.

Quote:
I suppose I forgot to add the other reason I was put off was the round prior the timer guy stopped moving right in my path while I sprinted to make a shot from a better angle. Causing me to collide into him.
"timer guy" = Range Office = RO

Two possible calls the RO can make. Either (1) RO interference (he bumped into you) and you are offered a reshoot, or (2) you ran into the RO, on purpose, and you are disqualified for the match, because you are trying to get an interference call. There is some judgement there, but those are the 2 choices.

Yeah, find another club.
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Old July 8, 2013, 10:51 AM   #18
Don P
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Quote:
It seems as if the OP is being asked to serve as RO but wants to be able to keep his firearm loaded. I don't really see the reason for this.
No that is not what I am asking, at our range the RSO on duty at the range carries loaded/hot. We have the range open to the members while a match is taking place. Again what I asked and I believe one person answered my original question is/was and let me clarify,
The RSO is "NOT" a participant in the match, not officiating in the match and is on duty for the general membership and has nothing to do with the match
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Old July 8, 2013, 11:58 AM   #19
RickB
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There is no "their rules" for USPSA. Clubs are not allowed to vary from what is in the rule book, even for safety reasons. One of the local USPSA clubs wanted to make it a DQable offense to raise the muzzle above the berm, but since that's not a violation of any USPSA rules, such a rule cannot be enforced at USPSA matches.
I've shot well over 500 USPSA and IDPA matches in seven states, and have yet to run into an unfriendly bunch. Of course, clubs hosting "major matches" tend to be successful clubs, and with good reason.
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Old July 8, 2013, 12:53 PM   #20
allaroundhunter
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Re: Hot or Cold range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don P View Post
No that is not what I am asking, at our range the RSO on duty at the range carries loaded/hot. We have the range open to the members while a match is taking place. Again what I asked and I believe one person answered my original question is/was and let me clarify,
The RSO is "NOT" a participant in the match, not officiating in the match and is on duty for the general membership and has nothing to do with the match
In that case then he just has to follow the club rules, not the match rules.
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Old July 9, 2013, 09:30 AM   #21
Don P
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In that case then he just has to follow the club rules, not the match rules.
Thats what I thought and I was under that impression. Not my place to get in the middle of all this. I was asking for myself being I could not find the cold range statement anywhere.
Thanks for the input in answering my initial question
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