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Old July 6, 2013, 05:03 PM   #1
Pond, James Pond
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Hypothetical question for any IPCS ROs out there.

Position SUL.
Would that be considered safe of moving to the next target area in a match?

I looked at the 2012 rules and under movement, it only says "The firearm must
be pointed in a safe direction."

When I move, regardless of the direction, I do so with an imaginary bungee cord connecting my muzzle with the target area, but pointed at the ground is also a safe direction, or the rules on muzzle angle in the holster would not be applicable.

Based on this logic, wouldn't SUL also meet the criterion for safe muzzle direction?

Before I get lynched for asking I should make clear I am not planning on changing my current practice, but interested to know if the rules allow for it. As it happens I find position SUL a very interesting concept, but perhaps less useful to me as a solo shooter (ie not in some fire-team).
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Old July 6, 2013, 10:01 PM   #2
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As long as it doesn't break the 180 or point anywhere unsafe likeat a part of your body. I can imagine some ROs getting uptight if a compressed position caused them to lose sight of the gun but that is more their problem than yours. I've used various compressed positions on the move, it's often safer if you are traversing barriers and such, plus if there is a lot of rotation you avoid the turret effect that some people get into. In most courses you would probably be better served to compress the gun to the body in order to negotiate an obstacle or turn and then immediately get out on another target.

IOW, you don't see many top shooters using such because they are too busy engaging another array.
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Old July 7, 2013, 08:42 AM   #3
WESHOOT2
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default mode

When I ain't sure about stuff, I default to the "what would I do in real life?" mode.



'Cept I always keep me game-muzzle pointed rule-abidingly properly (unlike real life, where based on circumstances I might be wavin' it around like a flag ).
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Old July 7, 2013, 08:45 AM   #4
allaroundhunter
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Re: Hypothetical question for any IPCS ROs out there.

When I am ROing I have no problem with that. It isn't hard for me to keep an eye on the gun, and as long as you aren't breaking the 180 or getting your finger inside of the trigger guard you should be good.
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Old July 7, 2013, 09:45 AM   #5
lmccrock
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Not sure of the details of "Position SUL" outside of a quick Google search, but for USPSA (IPSC in the USA), keep the muzzle down range and not pointed at your feet, and you are ok.

The top shooters will use it if it is fast. Except for going through tight obstacles, does not look fast.

If you want details and a bigger population of IPSC shooters, try the Brian Enos IPSC/USPSA Forum
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Old July 7, 2013, 11:46 AM   #6
Pond, James Pond
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Quote:
but for USPSA (IPSC in the USA),keep the muzzle down range and not pointed at your feet, and you are ok.
That seems different to IPSC "rest-of-world".

I've looked at the rules, and I've tried to cross-reference the rules and DQ criteria and I think that position SUL should be OK to use, provided the muzzle, even if pointed at the floor, does not orientate uprange. In other words, if I used SUL, but had to run uprange as part of the course of fire, I'd have to move my SUL configured hands towards my side and twist my back so that the muzzle was still "down range" even if at a even acute angle off the downward vertical.

The reason I ask is that, although IPSC is a sport and not a single-minded SD training program, instilling useful pistol positions as part of the competition is a good idea. Compressed pistol stances with the back of the slide up close to the breast-bone (sorry: don't know the name) are one way, but make running uprange even harder as there the muzzle in closer to the horizontal than the vertical.

In a purely defensive situation, I'd prefer not to be running with my gun and hand extended behind me: seems like something easy to grab, yet my existing IPSC methods would make that my uprange movement gun posistion.

Make sense?

If not, sorry: I am tired. New-borns and sleep don't go together even if my wife is protecting me from the worst by taking the brunt. (She's a star!! )
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Old July 7, 2013, 04:01 PM   #7
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Ok, rulebook mode on.

In USPSA and IPSC, unsafe gun handling is a match disqualification. Same for both:

Quote:
Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping).
So, even if you do not break the 180, pointing at your feet is a DQ, since your feet are part of your body, Yes, there is an exception for drawing and holstering. If you choose to point the gun straight down and waddle, being sure the muzzle never sweeps your feet, then ok, no DQ.

I'll stick to "if its fast, do it". I will add "IPSC/USPSA/IDPA are not training".

Congratulations on the newborns.
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Old July 7, 2013, 05:10 PM   #8
Pond, James Pond
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Quote:
If you choose to point the gun straight down and waddle, being sure the muzzle never sweeps your feet, then ok, no DQ
I ran around the house with an empty Glock this afternoon: SUL need not sweep the feet: you can angle the muzzle out a fraction and it is OK.

Quote:
I'll stick to "if its fast, do it".
I am happy to improve my times, and my shooting, but I'm not so fussed about titles and league positions.
I'm out to beat myself. For my low level of expertise and competence, improving my shooting will make a bigger difference to my times than any pistol ready stance.

Quote:
I will add "IPSC/USPSA/IDPA are not training".
No, that is true, but it is better than nothing as there are no SD training schools here that I know of.
Either way, IPSC does practise skills that are useful: stance, aim, trigger-work, double taps, shooting all under pressure and so correct pistol ready stance could also be one of them. If I can tie in real world good practices with my competitive shooting to make me a potentially better shooter, real-world, even if it means that as a competitive shooter I am a bit slower, I am comfortable with that.

Bottom line is, whether I end up using SUL or not, there is something about that stance that feels very natural to me: the way the thumbs pivot to bring the sights on target: it just makes sense... almost as if 80% of the muscle memory for it were already in situ.
Perhaps that is a sign of a well conceived method.

Quote:
Congratulations on the newborns.
Luckily for my sleep quota ours is a singular, not plural.
I was misleading in my post because I was make a general statement. If we had more than one on our hands, I don't think I'd be able to read posts, let alone answer them!!!
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Old July 7, 2013, 11:06 PM   #9
Jim Watson
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SUL is a military or law enforcement team technique. Better you should shoot yourself in the foot than your partner in the back.

It would be discouraged if not disallowed in any USPSA or IDPA match I have shot. Disallowed for sure at two ranges I know of. You would at least be closely watched to see if you covered your own feet or if the muzzle happened to tip at all toward the rear.
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Old July 8, 2013, 12:00 PM   #10
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And it's for use in a crowd, which you won't find on a USPSA stage.
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Old July 8, 2013, 01:11 PM   #11
Pond, James Pond
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Spoke to the main R.M. at my club and he agrees... with you...

He agreed that there was too big a risk of "self-sweeping" and therefore it is best avoided...

That, as they say, is that.
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