The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 4, 2013, 06:48 PM   #26
CraigJS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2005
Posts: 372
Less blow back danger with a stream than a cone.. Fox Labs here. NO OC is always effective, anyone that says it is, is clueless. If you use it, haul fanny out of there, but, call 911 ASAP!
No SD method pistols included, any cal. are 100% show stoppers, 100% of the time..
CraigJS is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 07:48 PM   #27
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
OC sprays; chemical agents, time.....

A good point posted here is to check your chemical agent often to make sure it works correctly.
Many OC sprays & cans have the date posted on them. My Sabre Red CrossFire Mark III runs until 2014 or so but I plan to replace it sooner.
It discharged when I tested it about 2mo ago so I feel safe with it.
Id add that humidity, extreme temperate changes, water-moisture, etc may also damage the OC spray or gel. Some packages even state not to transport by aircraft.

ClydeFrog
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 10:23 AM   #28
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,355
Something to ponder, Pepper spray, mace, etc. is a controlled item in many areas. You have to know the laws where ever you go.

HOWEVER, hair spray isn't. Hair spray is quite common with many women but it is just as effective as pepper spray & mace.

Many consider pepper spray/mace to be a weapon. Never heard of a local that limits hair spray.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 09:23 PM   #29
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Hair care products....

Id be leery of suggesting any hair care items for personal defense.
They may be handy & "legal" but they may also be flammable, .

As some older TFLers may recall, singer/entertainer Michael Jackson had a serious injury on the set of a Pepsi cola ad in the late 1980s. His excessive hair care chemicals made his hair burn.

I also recall a scene in a 1970s era James Bond spy film where Roger Moore's 007 used a lighter & a spray can as a weapon.

You may say; "hey, that's some Mythbusters type stuff but Id caution you.
A female police officer in the Daytona Beach FL area had a event where she hit a violent subject with a Taser weapon. The darts hit a cheap lighter in a shirt pocket & caused serious burns. The man later sued the police officer, the city & the PD for a huge amount of $$$.

Keep in mind, even in a use of force event, your actions & mindset will be under close scrutiny by the prosecutors & investigators.
Whether its a OC spray, a Taser, a can of bug spray, or a firearm.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 09:54 PM   #30
Ruark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2010
Posts: 180
Good discussion. One thing: there is a lot of variability in pepper sprays. Something like Fox Labs and the cheap keychain stuff next to the register at Walmart are worlds apart. A few things I've picked up over the years, in no particular order:

1. NEVER carry it on your keychain. Your keys are likely to be on the bottom of your purse or deep in your pocket. You'll fumble and stumble trying to get to it, and then if you drop it or if it's knocked out of your hand, you're stuck without your keys as well. Keep it in your purse side pocket or on your belt.

2. Never hold it out in front of you so as to say, "hey, if you mess with me I'll spray you..." That does two things. First, it lets the attacker know you have it, so he'll shield his face or be ready to turn his head quickly. Second, it makes it easy to knock it out of your hand. Keep it in your hand, but in a pocket, side pocket or at your side, so you can whip it out and spray him by surprise.

3. Remember, the INSTANT the attacker recognizes what's happening, he'll hold up his hands and twist his face away from you. You'll have just a fraction of a second to hit him. That's why I'm strongly against "stream" sprays. An attacker violently ducking and weaving and twisting is almost impossible to hit with a stream. Go with the fog/mist. Yes, blowback is an issue. Just be aware of your wind direction.

4. I haven't tested these sprays, but have researched them extensively, and for all apparent purposes, nothing comes close to Fox Labs. There are a bunch of YouTubes showing people getting sprayed by this stuff, including ex-Marines and SWATs.

Try these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kAkHPuBM8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCQRF0dko9w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5TNzvajcVo


5. NEVER spray "just a little bit to see how it works." This can sort of break the seal and cause the pressure to leak out. Fox Labs, in fact, sells one filled with water, just for this "practice."

Last edited by Ruark; July 5, 2013 at 10:12 PM.
Ruark is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 10:03 PM   #31
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Good points/Zarc-Vexor....

Those are great points but in fairness, Zarc(the firm that produces Vexor) states that the cans are safe to carry-use & are designed to work consistently in duty conditions.

As noted, Vexor is in wide use with major LE agencies & corrections but may not be available to private citizens.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 10:06 PM   #32
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
Re: Pepper Spray

Ruark, some manufacturers recommend testing your spray periodically to make sure it is still operating (and not just with training canisters).
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 10:17 PM   #33
Ruark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2010
Posts: 180
Quote:
Ruark, some manufacturers recommend testing your spray periodically to make sure it is still operating (and not just with training canisters).
You're right, thanks. Even Fox Labs says it's OK, but not too often. I personally wouldn't do it; it's not worth the risk.
Ruark is offline  
Old July 6, 2013, 12:45 PM   #34
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Deployment....

I would agree too with the advice to be discreet about deploying the chemical agent. I had a incident in 2011 with a intoxicated subject who became more aggressive when I pulled out my OC spray.

Id add that took issue with my OC/Mace class instructor(a retired cop & SE Asia combat veteran). He was a great teacher but told our class that a subject hit with OC or chemical agent will not be a threat or will comply with you & allow first aid to be used.
I highly doubt any career crook or gang member hit with OC or a EDW(Taser) will suddenly become docile or compliant.
If anything, the smart move would be to flee(beat cheeks) or if working as a armed professional, secure or restrain the subject.
When the PD or local LE officers arrive, they can remove the restraints & apply first aid. EMTs & firefighters are trained to not provide aid until the area is safe.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old July 6, 2013, 01:39 PM   #35
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 233
When deployinv the spray retreat backwards to make sure you dont catch the spray and in the event the attacker decides to counterattack.
johnelmore is offline  
Old July 6, 2013, 04:17 PM   #36
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,186
more is not always better and there are very specific reasons that half second burst is the norm in training. It has a lot to do with adrenaline and how excess OC can work against you.

free tid-bit of info:

Sooner or later You WILL get cross contaminated with your own OC. Keep this in mind when you "think" you want 4million SHU.

There are plenty of bursts in a 2 oz high pressure can

Foam is much better in confined spaces

ballistic stream is better than cone

its easy to underestimate the aeration ability of OC

More is not always better

Hotter is not always better

Non- high pressure cans don't seem to work very well

high pressure cans ( concave bottoms) seem to work well.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; July 6, 2013 at 04:34 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old July 6, 2013, 08:01 PM   #37
Kevin Rohrer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2010
Location: Medina, Ohio
Posts: 507
I can't speak for the other commenters here, but I carry OC for a living and have used it numerous times against both people and dogs. I have also had it used against me in training (and once accidentally in the field [it was of the fog variety]), and am satisfied with its effectiveness. One thing to remember, is that even if the recipient is drunk, high, or a mental (and I have used it against all of these goofs), if you use it correctly, it will at the very least blind the person, which increases your tactical options.

Quote:
....flip top cone spray... I'm a little concerned that this stuff is very hot.
If you are concerned about this (and I would be), try and stay upwind, and get something other than a cone spray. The stream-variety works well and is aim-able.

Quote:
I'm debating the merits of just having someone shoot me with it so I can learn how it feels.
Not a bad idea, but remember: there is a reason we call it "Liquid Hell". No one who has ever been hit with it wants a second shot. A Dallas copper once told me that no matter how bad ass some knucklehead thought he was, "once he heard the velcro (on the OC holster) rip, it was time to straighten-up".


Quote:
Obviously I'll buy some training inserts and we'll run through simple practices like keeping it concealed until you use it, half second bursts, spray and move, things like that.
Less is better because if the recipient gets too much on him, the vehicle will overcome the active ingredient and reduce its effectiveness. If you go to a stream, it takes about 2-seconds to paint someone's face with it. After that, it takes 3-5 seconds for him to go blind and begin to choke.
__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, American Legion, & South Cuyahoga Sportsmen's Assn.

"Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery...all else is twaddle!" --Admiral Sir John Fisher, RN
Kevin Rohrer is offline  
Old July 6, 2013, 08:25 PM   #38
bt380
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Posts: 331
Bear spray (30 foot) and a follow up zapper to shock the crude out of them. That works until they pull their gun while you have your hands full of spray.
bt380 is offline  
Old July 7, 2013, 12:51 AM   #39
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Quote:
That works until they pull their gun while you have your hands full of spray.
Or until they pull YOUR gun because you caught the blowback and now have both hands instinctively in your face.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10850 seconds with 9 queries