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Old July 1, 2013, 11:24 AM   #26
Wheel-Gunner
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A few thoughts:

As many have pointed out: Practice, practice, practice.

I really really have a hard time believing that 5 rounds (or 6 for that matter) will not be enough. Sure there are extenuating circumstances that do happen (however remote), but I probably have just as good of a chance being struck by lightning. With the areas of town I frequent and what my daily activities entail, I feel like 5 rounds from a weapon I am proficient with will be enough. Based on the many firearms courses I have taken in the past, I believe the average gunshots fired in a defense situation is well under 2.

For home defense, I think it is tough to beat a short barreled shotgun with a light mounted on it.
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Old July 1, 2013, 12:05 PM   #27
Tennessee Jed
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I'm a revolver man to the bone, and I can relate to the thought of "what if I run out of ammo?" I do believe I'm more likely to run out of time before I run out of ammo. However, I've come up with a couple of items for myself.

First, I started shooting at IPDA. Didn't take the easy route. I showed up with an S&W 28 and some HKS speedloaders held at the belt in pouches with flaps and snaps. That experience will very quickly teach what works and what doesn't. If you can learn to reload quickly while everyone is watching you and the clock is ticking, you are on your way. It will also teach you how you react under stress (nowhere near that of a life and death scenario, but still more stress than the square range).

Second, I decided that for home defense, my revolver becomes the secondary weapon. My first choice at my house will always be a long gun with an extended magazine.
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Old July 1, 2013, 12:27 PM   #28
BigJimP
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There are more reloaders on the market - than the one in your photo attached....which looks like the HKS version....

depending on the model of your gun ....you can try Safariland or Jet.../ I like them both way better than the HKS speedloaders...with the Jet being my personal favorite in a K or L frame S&W 6 shot revolver...
------------
Capacity is an often debated issue on "Defense" ...but to me, a good Defense gun, is the gun you shoot the best - at the range that you intend to defend yourself ( 3 - 24 Feet probably )....

So you need to practice with the gun - firing quickly double taps, triple taps - and some reloads...and whether its a revolver or a semi-auto is probably irrelevant...if you can put shots on target consistently that is the key ! So go to the range and practice ....ideally drawing from holster, or shooting from low ready or whatever....( draw from holster and trip taps under 5 sec is probably ok - especially to start ) ....but if you're not 99% in that triangle between the nipples and line to belly button ...you have some work to do. I'd forget about the lasers - and all that stuff....it comes down to whether you can shoot the gun you've chosen or not.../ and .357 Mag is just fine - if you can shoot it well.

Then work on the reloading...and I think Mike said above ...last shot - to reload and 1 shot was around 4 sec ..../ that's a good goal.

One of the drills I like is -( draw from holster - a double tap - reload - another double tap ). Probably start at a 10 sec goal ( for the whole drill )....run it twice at 9 Ft, 12', 15', 18', 21' and 24' - so that's 48 rds ...or almost a box. In a revolver for this drill ...it depends on what fits your hands the best - but I like a K, L or N frame S&W in a 4" in .357 Mag...4" gives me a decent length of sight plane...and K, L or N frame gives me enough weight to handle the .357 mag ( K frame mod 19 or 66, L frame mod 686 , N frame model 27 ...)...but you should shoot what you like, and what fits your hands ! If this revolver was my primary carry gun - or my night stand gun ....I'd run this drill at least twice a week ....3 or 4 times, per range visit....until I had the muscle memory down to a point where I was really consistent on time and reload competency. ( and its fun !! )...
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Old July 1, 2013, 09:54 PM   #29
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Getting fast at reloading -

Shooting (surely any sport) is all about several very small tasks. You combine those tasks, string them together, and you have the executed shot (dive, baseball pitch, ballet dance, whatever).

Fine tuning the small tasks is what world class athletes and their coaches do. Get EFFICIENT at those small movements so that you eliminate extra, unnecessary movement(s). Once you're efficient at those individual movements, they take up less and less time. And that's what makes you fast.

Focus on the SMALL movements.


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Old July 2, 2013, 11:39 AM   #30
alaskabushman
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Try being left handed in a world where almost all revolver cylinders swing the wrong direction...

I had to learn to tip the revolver upside down to load with the proper hands, switching hands to reload then switching back would not cut it (yes I can shoot righty, but I'm better with my left). Bottom line, find what works for you, and practice.

I actually do carry my speedloaders in my pocket, I moved my keys to a carabiner clip (goofy I know) on my belt loop. moved my zippo to the little watch pocket of my jeans and started carrying my Leatherman in the pouch again. Now all that in my pocket is a speed loader and my EDC flashlight, which is easily distinguishable from the HKS and not much bigger than the AAA battery inside it.

Carrying a gun is an inconvenience, sometimes we have to adjust ourselves to fit it!
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Old July 2, 2013, 01:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
you can try Safariland or Jet.../ I like them both way better than the HKS speedloaders...with the Jet being my personal favorite in a K or L frame S&W 6 shot revolver
BigJimP - Could you comment on the differences between Comp IIIs vs the Jets? Are they essentially the same design but the spring isn't exposed on the Safari?

Thanks -


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Old July 2, 2013, 02:20 PM   #32
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The body diameter of JetLoaders is a teensy bit smaller than CompIIIs. The spring on the JetLoader feels a bit more positive to me, too. You can also get a JetLoader (but AFAIK not a CompIII) for a 5-shot J-frame.
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Old July 2, 2013, 05:00 PM   #33
USCS
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I don't always carry a five shot, but when I do, I carry a couple of Safariland 5 round speed loaders. Just push them in until you hear/feel the click.

And as others have stated practice, practice, practice.
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Old July 2, 2013, 10:48 PM   #34
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Does anyone remember the early Bianchi speedloaders? They looked sort of like a comp II but there were no moving parts. The whole thing was a rubber, flexible shell. Rims were held in place by friction and a little rubber ledge. To release the cartridges from the speed loader, you'd squeeze the whole thing, like a rubber ball. They usually needed just a bit of a twist to encourage the last round or two to let loose. I hadn't thought about them for years. They weren't approved for my dept. We were still using dumps.


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Old July 3, 2013, 11:47 AM   #35
BigJimP
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SgtLumpy,

There is just something about the Jet that feels better ...( I'm in my office today, so I don't have them handy - side by side....) but part of it is the Jet just seems to get into position cleaner and releases the rounds more cleanly into the gun - or it might just be the way the Jet fits my big paws ..../ or the style of wood grips I have on my K and L frame guns.

Like most of you guys.. ..I have a 20 gallon tub full of holsters and speedloaders, etc that I don't use ...and in speedloaders, I have HKS, Safariland II's and III's, speed strips - and the Jet ...)...

and it really irritates me that I have to use the HKS for my N frame model 29's, 27's and 28's ...because Jet doesn't make a speedloader for an N frame - at least that I've found...yet !

I'm not a competitive shooter so its not a big deal....but I'm almost 1/2 sec faster with the Jet than the Safariland...and at least a full sec faster than I am with the HKS.../ but I think a lot of what speed loader you like the best comes down to just the little things - some guys swear by moon clips - and I've never liked that idea at all..

Last edited by BigJimP; July 3, 2013 at 11:56 AM.
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Old July 4, 2013, 03:49 PM   #36
Nick_C_S
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If I carried a 5-shot snubbie, I wouldn't bother with extra rounds. Not meaning to sound snide, but my plan would be to hit what I aim at; or don't take the shot.

As previously mentioned: practice practice practice.
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Old July 4, 2013, 04:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
If I carried a 5-shot snubbie, I wouldn't bother with extra rounds. Not meaning to sound snide, but my plan would be to hit what I aim at; or don't take the shot.
Has a multiple-attacker situation never occurred in your part of the country?
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old July 4, 2013, 04:05 PM   #38
Nick_C_S
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I didn't say I was prepared for every contingency.
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Old July 4, 2013, 04:58 PM   #39
SgtLumpy
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If seventy-five people attacked me, I'd be under gunned.


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Old July 5, 2013, 05:16 PM   #40
Nick_C_S
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To answer more seriously, and to Wheel-Gunner's point: I believe the average gunfight last - something like - 1.8 rounds. The chances of needing a semi-auto mag's worth of rounds is exceedingly small.

My work buddy and I have the "fire-power vs. hitting-power" debate on a regular basis. He prefers his 15-round 9mm, and I want my 6-shot .357 smokewagon.

It's unlikely that a defensive situation would result in emptying your weapon - even if it's only a 5-shotter.
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Old July 5, 2013, 06:51 PM   #41
alaskabushman
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Often a defensive situation does not require ANY rounds fired, sometimes the mere sight of a firearm is a deterrent. Of course, we do not depend on this, which it why we carry ammo in our weapons...
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Old July 7, 2013, 07:34 AM   #42
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"I abhor averages. I like the individual case. A man may have six meals one day and none the next, making an average of three meals per day, but that is not a good way to live." -Louis D. Brandeis


Nick_C_S wrote:
Quote:
The chances of needing a semi-auto mag's worth of rounds is exceedingly small.
Yet the chance remains. I carry a snubby revolver. But I also carry speed strip.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old July 8, 2013, 10:59 PM   #43
PzGren
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If things happen at 4 a.m. you might not have a pocket in your p.j.'s to put the speedloader into.
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Old July 8, 2013, 11:20 PM   #44
ClydeFrog
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Speed strips...

I've packed a few DA & DA only revolvers(5-6 round) both on uniformed security & concealed. I'm left handed & lean towards the great Bianchi Intl Speed Strips & the newer bright orange 5 round Quik Strips; www.tuffproducts.com .
I've picked the tip to conceal 2 .38/.357 size strips in a handy Altoids candy mint case.

As noted, practice is a great idea. My friend just got his first DA only snub; a new Ruger LCR .38spl with a Lasermax Crossfire red laser.
I advised him to buy some A-Zoom training rounds & some Quik-Strips.
It's not as fast or practical as a semi-auto(5-6 rounds with 2 strips/18 rounds vs 18-34 rounds of .40 or 9x19mm in a pistol).
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Old July 10, 2013, 07:28 AM   #45
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Quote:
If things happen at 4 a.m. you might not have a pocket in your p.j.'s to put the speedloader into.
kinda goes for autoloaders too...
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old July 10, 2013, 12:32 PM   #46
UncleEd
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Sleep in the raw and surprise the hell out of the attacker.
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Old July 10, 2013, 06:27 PM   #47
Gaz_in_NZ
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Not that any of this "home defense weapon" affects me but I think if it did then I would prefer a 6 or 8 shot short barrel non-choked 12g pump gun with a verity of different shells in the mag, just to be sure.
Dunno if this would be a viable option to use, but that's what I'd be inclined do.

Cheers
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Old July 10, 2013, 08:27 PM   #48
SgtLumpy
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That 8 round shotgun would probably be beyond what most would consider "short barreled".


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Old July 11, 2013, 07:49 AM   #49
ScotchMan
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All these people saying 5 rounds will be enough are lying to themselves. Read up on recent crime trends; the pattern is multiple people breaking into your house together. Gone are the days of one guy doing this stuff alone. They COULD be enough, but I suspect all these "1.8 shots is the average fired" are based on a very large period of time that would not account for recent crime trends. Pay attention to your news and what happens in your area, that will be more valuable information than outdated crime statistics.

In a concealed carry situation, you don't know what you will get. But I would certainly want to be prepared to defend against more than one guy. Even against the one, people have taken way more than 5 rounds to the chest and kept doing evil things.

So I agree with the OP's desire to have more ammo on hand, and think trying to dissuade him from that is a disservice.

Honestly, the revolver does not shine as a primary concealed carry weapon and/or a primary home defense weapon. Sorry if I ruffle any feathers with that, but technology has eclipsed the revolver's 5-8 shot, slow to reload, design. The world has changed as well. When revolvers were the norm, crime was different. So the argument that they've been working for 100 years, while not totally invalid, is also over simplifying the issue.

I love revolvers, and they have their place even today. But as a primary defensive tool against humans, there are better choices.

That said, here is what I would do in this situation, in order of preference:

1) Get a long arm for HD, and some kind of autoloader for CC. Without knowing what the specific objections to autoloaders are, I can't comment further, but there are a LOT of choices out there. So whether the concern is reliability, size, slide is too hard to rack, etc, there is a gun out there for you.

2) Get more revolvers; the NY reload is the fastest way, and has a host of other benefits too (backup gun if you get disarmed, ability to arm companions in a concealed carry scenario, more reliable than trying to reload under stress, etc).

3) Moon clips!!! Moon clips are awesome. They allow you to reload a revolver just about the same speed as an autoloader, especially with practice. Nothing is going to change the fact that carrying revolver reloads is uncomfortable; its a circular design. But moon clips are the way to go IMO.

4) Speed loaders (faster, harder to carry)

5) Speed strips (slower, easier to carry)

6) Loose rounds (worst of both worlds)

7) Knife

8) Strong language
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Old July 11, 2013, 07:54 AM   #50
ScotchMan
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Quote:
That 8 round shotgun would probably be beyond what most would consider "short barreled".
How so? A 18.5" pump shotgun with factory magazine extension will hold 6+1 or 7+1. A 20" can easily get up to 8+1. 18" is the shortest a shotgun can legally be without being an NFA item.
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