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Old June 29, 2013, 11:04 AM   #51
SgtLumpy
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Yes they do. Ordinary people. Soccer moms and shop teachers and grocery clerks. All they have to do is 1) practice, 2) not listen to people who tell them "that can't be done" and 3) practice some more.

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Self defense and life or death situations is usually not the place to plain on using performance stunts.
Uh, ok. I'm not sure what you're suggesting there.

ANYone can learn to shoot accurately at greater than bad breath distance. It takes desire and practice. Nothing more. If someone can learn to shoot aspirins at 10 feet, doesn't it stand to reason that someone can learn to shoot sillhouette sized targets at 25-50-100+ yards?

The NEED or appropriateness of shooting in combat at 100yds with a snub is another question altogether. But the ABILITY is what I'm suggesting. We all have the ability. Some of us just tell ourselves that we can't.

I'll take Mr Jordan defending me at any distance over someone who says "I don't feel comfortable beyond XX range".


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Old June 29, 2013, 04:28 PM   #52
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Uh, ok. I'm not sure what you're suggesting there.

ANYone can learn to shoot accurately at greater than bad breath distance. It takes desire and practice. Nothing more. If someone can learn to shoot aspirins at 10 feet, doesn't it stand to reason that someone can learn to shoot sillhouette sized targets at 25-50-100+ yards?

The NEED or appropriateness of shooting in combat at 100yds with a snub is another question altogether. But the ABILITY is what I'm suggesting. We all have the ability. Some of us just tell ourselves that we can't.

I'll take Mr Jordan defending me at any distance over someone who says "I don't feel comfortable beyond XX range".
I am just suggesting a realistic "combat" range.

I would define "combat" as in a fight/someone trying to kill you. So if a murder is rushing at me I probably wouldn't start shooting at 100yds with a snub nose or would not suggest that kind of range to someone with a snub nose. People could hit stuff that far with a snub nose but as far as a "combat" range it seems pretty far fetched. I also put into the equation that the common sunb nose has 5-6rds. So I would not want to waste them at long uncertain shots.

Many of the trick shooters we see have a routine the train over and over on the same trick in the same controlled conditions. In a chaotic attack we can find patterns maybe if we are lucky. Then we still have the stress, chaos and life or death at stake.

Personally I would want ranges and tactics that are pretty solid.
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Old June 29, 2013, 04:38 PM   #53
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Many of the trick shooters we see have a routine the train over and over on the same trick in the same controlled conditions. In a chaotic attack we can find patterns maybe if we are lucky. Then we still have the stress, chaos and life or death at stake.
The stress and chaos and life or death is at stake whether the good guy is a pistolero deluxe or a novice that took a class a year ago.

I'll choose the pistolero for my team.

I'm not saying, and I don't think anyone said that 100 yds is a realistic combat range for a home invasion or carjacking or ATM robbery. All I'm saying is that normal people, with the proper mindset and enough practice, can do things that people withOUT that mindset and practice don't believe is possible.

You're looking for an argument with me that doesn't exist.


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Old June 29, 2013, 04:54 PM   #54
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If someone can learn to shoot aspirins at 10 feet, doesn't it stand to reason that someone can learn to shoot sillhouette sized targets at 25-50-100+ yards?
Absolutely. But he may shoot 100,000 rounds a year for ten years to get there...and that is not in the cards for most of us.

So we practice (what each of us considers) a reasonable amount, do some dry firing, maybe take a class when we can afford it. Some of us handload to increase the amount of shooting we can afford to do.

But none of us has an unlimited budget of time, money or ammo. And so each of us arrives at a certain proficiency level that may rise or fall, year in, year out. That is simply part of life. While we would each like to reach the level of Jerry Miculek, Bill Jordan, Todd Jarrett (fill in the blank) that is not a realistic expectation for 99.99% of us.

That is not making excuses--it is facing reality.
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Old June 29, 2013, 05:33 PM   #55
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It is not rocket science to shoot any handgun combat accurately to the far reaches of its intrinsic range.
It is certainly nowhere near as hard to accomplish as it would be to equal Bill Jordan.
First, it takes the realization that it is possible.
Second, it is a matter of the fundamentals...
Sight picture
Breathing control
Trigger pull
Knowledge of how POA relates to POI at longer range.
Solid field position
If you are at a range with a dirt berm which allows it, just try picking out a visible feature like a weed, or toss a couple clay pigeons on it. Try shooting at it watch for the impacts...
I use the Elmer Keith method...hold at six o'clock, then raise front sight until the rear cuts it in half...unless the pistol is very flat shooting, like my Tokarev.
For me, I consider myself capable of hitting out to 50yds with my Model 38 Bodyguard Airweight.
The need for taking such a shot may be infinitesimal...but I have a friend who had such a shot, a shot the responding police told him they wish he would have taken. He did not because he had never shot his Model 10 snub farther than 20ft.
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Old June 30, 2013, 02:29 AM   #56
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But none of us has an unlimited budget of time, money or ammo.
I'll rephrase...

You'll never be able to shoot at any significant distance. It's just not possible for you because you don't have an unlimited budget of time, money or ammo.

Is that better?

I posted this pic in another thread. The little kid in the pic was shooting his dad's 44 magnum. He was hitting the 7 ring in a standard bullseye target at 100 yards. Good thing that kid has an unlimited budget of time, money and ammo.




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Old June 30, 2013, 09:29 AM   #57
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The stress and chaos and life or death is at stake whether the good guy is a pistolero deluxe or a novice that took a class a year ago.

I'll choose the pistolero for my team.
It would depend for me. In a life or death situation the gun is just one factor. Many people fall apart mentally when it comes down to it.

Quote:
I'm not saying, and I don't think anyone said that 100 yds is a realistic combat range for a home invasion or carjacking or ATM robbery. All I'm saying is that normal people, with the proper mindset and enough practice, can do things that people withOUT that mindset and practice don't believe is possible.

You're looking for an argument with me that doesn't exist.
I'm not really looking for an argument I am just taking the other end of the spectrum in the discussion.

People are talking about some large distances for a snub nose in "combat" shooting for me it would be much less. I would also question many trick shooters performance under life or death stress.

Many things are possible especially with training but people have limitations.
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Old June 30, 2013, 01:10 PM   #58
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You can haul firewood in a Corvette. But you're going to have to do a LOT more driving to get a cord home than you would if you used a pick up truck.

They call them belly guns for a reason. They work fine at belly to belly distances. The coarse sights, and less than precision trigger pulls (stock guns), and even (to a degree) the short sight radius work against easy long range precision shooting.

Can I hit a "regular" target at 100yds with a snub gun? Absolutely, once I have practiced enough to learn it. Single action, off hand, with a little bit of a learning curve I'll ring the 200yd gong on the rifle range. Been doing it for decades with all kinds of guns. Not nearly as difficult as many make it out to be.

That being said, combat shooting at that range with any pistol, let alone a snub nose is a) ridiculous, and b) next to impossible, even for experienced long range pistol shooters.

I am confident that if I had to, shooting a snub nose, DA, with the briefest time to aim, I could hit within a few yards (hopefully a few feet) at 100yds.

Aimed slow fire? They'd surely know they were being shot at, and if they stayed still, at 100yds, I'd get a hit before my gun was empty (providing, of course, I could spot the fall of shot...)

Realistically, as a simple private citizen, I can' think of a single plausible situation were justifying defensive shooting at that distance would be easy, or even credible. But then, my imagination seems to be getting more limited, the older I get....
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Old June 30, 2013, 01:31 PM   #59
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44AMP, please check my response to TunnelRat earlier in this thread. Vic Stacy took a shot that ranged from 65 yards and up, depending on the media source, defending a LEO from a rifleman's ambush. Stacy used a .357 revolver.
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Old July 1, 2013, 10:33 AM   #60
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The stress and chaos and life or death is at stake whether the good guy is a pistolero deluxe or a novice that took a class a year ago.

I'll choose the pistolero for my team.

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It would depend for me. In a life or death situation the gun is just one factor. Many people fall apart mentally when it comes down to it.
The GUN isn't the deciding factor in my statement above. The "Pistolero" (that's a person) is. To suggest that a well trained pistol shooter is somehow LESS prepared or reliable in a combat situation than a novice who took a class a year ago is just plain goofy thinking, IMO. BOTH shooters (novice and expert) face the same stresses under combat. I'll take an expert shooter under stress over a novice shooter under stress any day.

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Many things are possible especially with training but people have limitations.
OK, we differ.

People have limitations but those limitations are internal. There are no external factors that keep people from achieving something. Whatever is keeping the guy next to me from making that 100 yd shot and allowing me to make it is internal to both of us. He says "I can't". I say "I can".


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Old July 1, 2013, 11:26 AM   #61
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But he may shoot 100,000 rounds a year for ten years to get there...and that is not in the cards for most of us.
Shooting aspirin may not be in the cards for many people, but good hits on a full sized human sihlouette at 25 yards is easilly in the cards for most that would put aside the "It's a belly gun and can't be done" attitude.
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Old July 1, 2013, 07:02 PM   #62
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B-27's at 25 yd's and 21 ft. is what i usualy practice at with my s&w 638 most times followed by a round of paper plates at both distances . thats my usual snubby practice routine.
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Old July 1, 2013, 07:05 PM   #63
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In 1968 we were issued a 4" S&W Combat Masterpiece and Super-Vel ammo.
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Old July 1, 2013, 08:07 PM   #64
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There were a couple of responses to my referring to "splatter plates" earlier in this thread. It sort of got me thinking I was all wet, so I went back and watched Jordan again shooting his normal routine of necco wafers, aspirins, etc., in the video "Fast and Fancy Shooters" by Col. Rex Applegate. If you will take the time to watch him again, you will notice a metal plate on the table under his targets. This plate not only protected the table, it allowed him to shoot basically under his intended target and still hit it with the wax "splatter".
I meant none of this to demean Mr. Jordan or make light of his abilities as I was an admirer of his also, I just was pointing out that fact that his wax bullets didn't have to directly hit his target to be effective.
This subject sort of started with the conversation involving shooting a 2" revolver at 100 yds and breaking a baloon by another shooter. If I am not mistaken, you will notice a steel plate behind that baloon that dispersed the lead and broke the baloon. Still some pretty impressive shooting that I couldn't duplicate, but splatter plates were fairly common with some of the exhibition shooters.
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Old July 1, 2013, 10:14 PM   #65
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I can hit an a-zone size plate at 25 yards. Good enough. Now I have a model 36 and model 10 so I am no longer DAO like I am with a 642. I believe and practice deliberate sighted DA fire but if I want to take an unhurried shot at 50 yards I'm thumb cocking the thing.
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Old July 2, 2013, 03:01 PM   #66
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OK, we differ.

People have limitations but those limitations are internal. There are no external factors that keep people from achieving something. Whatever is keeping the guy next to me from making that 100 yd shot and allowing me to make it is internal to both of us. He says "I can't". I say "I can".
People can make backwards-cross court basket ball shots but the odds are low so it's usually not a wise move strategically because they will most likely fail. In a controlled environment trained performers can do this fairly regularly but under attack not so much. They can get mantra beads and chant "I can" all years but odds are still fail.

Shooting a snub nose at 100yds in an unfamiliar "combat" situation a human is going to have a decent sized group larger then a persons chest cavity. So it just turns into odds and groups size. The odds are most likely more then 1 in 5.
What odds does someone want to fight and gamble their life on?

Limitations are real and psychical people can only hold breath for so long because of lung size, or run so far with out water. A person can improve limitations but the limitations are still there.
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Old July 2, 2013, 04:00 PM   #67
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If someone is shooting at you from 100 yards, try to increase the distance to 200, 300, or even 400 miles. The faster and further you get out of there, the less likely you are going to be hit.

You win by living.
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Old July 2, 2013, 04:37 PM   #68
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People can make backwards-cross court basket ball shots but the odds are low so it's usually not a wise move strategically because they will most likely fail. In a controlled environment trained performers can do this fairly regularly but under attack not so much. They can get mantra beads and chant "I can" all years but odds are still fail.
You're right.

YOU should limit your self defense shots to bad breath distance.

Thanks -


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Old July 2, 2013, 05:54 PM   #69
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People can make backwards-cross court basket ball shots but the odds are low so it's usually not a wise move strategically because they will most likely fail. In a controlled environment trained performers can do this fairly regularly but under attack not so much. They can get mantra beads and chant "I can" all years but odds are still fail.
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You're right.

YOU should limit your self defense shots to bad breath distance.
Not sure where you read that..? Maybe I should just play basketball like a real person? and take shots like a real person?

Like I said earlier my maximum "combat" with a snubby would be 15-25ft. That's were I can realistically hit a paper plate on the fly.

Bad breath range is a little close for comfort but better then rolling on the ground.

Last edited by deepcreek; July 2, 2013 at 06:14 PM. Reason: typo
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Old July 2, 2013, 09:37 PM   #70
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Maybe I should just play basketball like a real person? and take shots like a real person?
Either way when the time on the clock is running out I'm taking the shot.
That's why you launch a few half court shots in practice.
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Old July 2, 2013, 10:41 PM   #71
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my maximum "combat" with a snubby would be 15-25ft.
Practice at that range and no further.



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Old July 3, 2013, 08:30 AM   #72
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Keyboard commandos can sure do amazing things..

I will probably never reach the levels. even with high speed bradband.
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Old July 3, 2013, 08:44 AM   #73
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Keyboard commandos can sure do amazing things..
You've taken it to the level of sour grapes.

Have a nice day.


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Old July 3, 2013, 08:53 AM   #74
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This one appears to have run its course.

Closed.
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