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Old June 20, 2013, 01:14 PM   #1
Dreaming100Straight
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Citori Firing Pin Springs and Failure to Fire

1. Some recommend changing firing pin springs and cleaning the pins, if your Citori has failures to fire, but what is the point of replacing those springs and not simply cleaning them? I believe they do not impart force to the primer, but retract the pins after the shot is taken. The energy transmitted to the primer comes from the hammer striker spring does it not? I think that is also called a mainspring or am I wrong?

2. I know this has been discussed multiple times, but usually in connection with magazine springs and I would like to focus on the Citori, which does not have a magazine. Especially the hammer striker spring. I am no engineer and haven't recently stayed in a Holiday Inn, but I believe those springs are compression coil (helical) springs and I believe that if properly designed and manufactured they shouldn't suffer any weakening form being stored in compression; weakening results from cycling between compression and release. I would especially like to hear from those with an engineering background, including architects such as Mssrs. Zippy and Slugo.
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Old June 20, 2013, 08:36 PM   #2
BigD_in_FL
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Bottom pins are notorious for getting worn down before the top ones. Another thing to consider , if reloading, are the primers being used. Nobelsports are bad for having the cups being seated .001-.002 too deep resulting in light strikes. If BOTH pins are light-striking, try flushing with a good cleaner like brake cleaner (don't forget to relube after). If that still doesn't work new pins and springs may be needed. My Browning needed new pins, springs and main springs at 90,000. Now at almost 300,000, everything is still going strong
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Old June 21, 2013, 05:24 AM   #3
Dreaming100Straight
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Sure enough they are Noblesports. One even failed to fire in the over or under barrel.
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Old June 21, 2013, 02:34 PM   #4
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My Citori

My citori started having misfires on one of the barrels I think it was the bottom barrel. i couldn't see any thing wrong but it had lots of rounds threw it so I decided to replace the springs and the firing pins, so I ordered from browning they came and I installed them and the problem was still there? So took it down again I found the housing the the firing pin rides in had galled and built up a bur that was stopping the pin. Had to take a small round file to clean out the firing pin bore then it went back to normal
bb
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Old June 22, 2013, 10:07 AM   #5
BigJimP
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I think you have a primer problem....

Shooters at my club that have used a few Noblesports are reporting an abnormal number of "Failure to Fires" ....sometimes 3 or 4 out of 100....so before you do anything to the gun, change your primers....go to CCI, Chedite or Remington....maybe Winchester ( although I had FTF issues with Win 209's a few yrs ago too )....
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Old June 22, 2013, 10:57 AM   #6
olddrum1
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Check your primer pocket on your reloader for a piece of shot that may have fallen in. This is like resetting the depth of seating. More than likely you had a piece of shot that caused the primer to be set to deeply and got a poor strike from it. Some times they will ride out after several reloads and sometimes not. Take the shell that failed to fire and put a straight edge across it. See if it is concave compared to a factory load.
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Old June 22, 2013, 08:07 PM   #7
Dreaming100Straight
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BigJimP, I tend to think it wasn't my Citori but the Win AAs my friend made up with Noble Sport primers. I meant to check the gun by shooting my own reloaded Gun Glubs with Chedites, but ended up shooting the upper barrel.

I like the choke in the upper so I will switch it to the lower barrel for next time and give it a good test.
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Old June 22, 2013, 08:11 PM   #8
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oldrum, AS the FTF's were all with a buddy's reloads I have no idea if he had a piece of shot in the primer pad or whatever it is called. I understand what you mean, though. My guess is that his ammo was the problem. He also had some FTF's with his Browning XT and the same ammo.
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Old June 23, 2013, 10:59 PM   #9
BigJimP
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You could drive yourself nuts figuring this out ....especially if its a primer quality issue...because it may come and go.

Seriously, I'd recommend you just get rid of the Nobles and go to Chedite, CCI, Remington 209's or maybe Winchester....and I suspect the problem will go away based on what I'm hearing about the Nobles at my gun club.
--------------
But what's really interesting...besides shotguns, I also reload and shoot about 30,000 rds a yr in my handguns -- and I was down to my last few thousand small pistol primers...and I prefer CCI...

At a big gunshow in my area, I was hoping to find some small pistol primers - and was optomistic prices might be down a little ??? As it turned out on Saturday am, I picked up 5,000 CCI small pistol primers for $45/1,000 when just last month they were $70/1,000 ....and a number of my buddies picked up cases of CCI shotshell and Win shotshell primers(5,000 to a case ).../ I even asked about Rem 1 1/2's for small pistol calibers, in a thread on this forum, because I knew a seller at the show, that had 20,000 of them for $45/1,000 and said she'd make me a deal if I bought the whole lot.

After getting some input on the Rem 1 1/2's being ok, at least in 9mm ...I went back to the show sunday am intending to buy them if they were still there...instead I ended picking up 10,000 more CCI small pistol primers at
$ 45/1,000 from a different table...

then I went to my local handgun range this afternoon for some practice...and the gen mgr for the range, knew I was looking for primers, and his distributor offered him what he describes as "quite a few cases" of CCI shotshell and small and large rifle and pistol primers yesterday ....and he sold me 10,000 more at $ 37.50 / 1,000 this afternoon....

He wants to limit each of us to no more than 2 cases ( 10,000 ) so he can spread the wealth around to more of our handgun range club members....and that's understandable and good business......

So primer supplies in my area are loosening up a little - all of a sudden...
and in the last 2 days I was able to replenish my inventory to meet my needs for the next 12 months at what has become more reasonable prices .....(and I'll share half of them with my shooting buddies that need them as well, for what I paid for them...)..if they run out..../ but maybe you'll get lucky in the next week or so with some primers showing up down there as well.
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Old June 24, 2013, 12:11 AM   #10
Dreaming100Straight
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Good to hear that some supplies are showing up. I get mine from a place in Covina and he received some Win 209 primers a couple of weeks ago, but they went fast. He got a shipment of Alliant powders and this time I was there when the truck pulled in. I think he doesn't expect anything from Hodgdon until September at best.

Ii don't have any Noble Sports. I am just now using up my supply of Cheddite, which my supplier is out of, but I bought a couple thousand CCIs. My supply guy also steered me away from Noble Sports, which I almost bought since the guy who had me try a box of his reloads loves them. The same guy had some FTFs that day in his Browning XT Trap.

I am not pulling the stock off before I run a few boxes of my own reloads through the lower barrel of the XS Skeet. I bet I don' have a single misfire.

I took a peak at the head of the pins as they are viewable through the face of the breech and they looked fine.
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Old June 24, 2013, 11:30 AM   #11
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I'm just more confused on what you're doing ...but ok / maybe I'm just under caffeinated this am....
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Old June 24, 2013, 06:52 PM   #12
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I'm not intimate with Citories; but, O/U guns have common features. It's hard to evaluate a bad primer or light/short firing pin strike after the fact -- ideally you'd have well scrutinized the shell before loading. In forty+ years of shot-shell reloading my only failures to fire have resulted from something obvious, like a broken spring or firing pin. I'm old school, and I've always reloaded shot-shells with the primer brand same as the hull.

I tend to agree with my friend, olddrum1, there's likely something on the lower pin's shoulder that's impeding the firing pin. With my O/Us, the lower barrel gets a lot more action that the top. Consequently, problems usually occur in the lower barrel.

Depending on the geometry of the action, the upper barrel frequently has a better mechanical advantage than the lower one. There's a longer resultant moment arm with the top pin. This may contribute to lighter strikes in the under barrel -- there's nothing you can do about this.

There's also the possibility of a manufacturing error. One of my buddies had a problem with his P-Mirage. His gun was a transitional model when Perazzi was altering its manufacturing process. A factory pin would not work in his lower barrel. PerazziUSA modified (shoulder set back) a set of factory pins to fit his specific gun.
Quote:
the FTF's were all with a buddy's reloads
My personal rule is to avoid another's reloads. You're lucky, you just had a failure to fire -- I've witnessed a breech failure (Belgium Browning) using a friend's overloaded reload. My friend, I don't recall, have you had any FTFs with quality factory ammo?

Last edited by zippy13; June 27, 2013 at 12:08 AM. Reason: speeling eroor
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Old June 25, 2013, 01:21 AM   #13
Dreaming100Straight
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Zippy, I never shoot quality factory ammunition. About a year ago I had two FTF's out of a flat of factory Gun Clubs when the Citori was new and shot a box of Rios a couple of times when I ran out of ammo at the field. Since then I have only had failures with a batch of reloads that were made up the first time I got a MEC Grabber and I let things get out of order a few times when I had a jam and had to clear the turret.

I have known this guy for over a year else I would never had touched his reloads, and only did so as I had never before shot a 3/4 oz load. But you are right and it isn't wise to shoot another's reloads. In fact, 2 weeks ago he offered to let me shoot his XT Trap, but I declined since I didn't want to shoot my reloads through his gun and I had intended to get some factory ammo to have on hand when I had an opportunity to try someone's gun.
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Old June 26, 2013, 12:35 AM   #14
olddrum1
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If you have a FTF, pull it out and run a straight edge across the centerline of the primer. See if the center of the shell is depressed. Car key, another shell, anything.
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Old June 26, 2013, 12:51 AM   #15
Dreaming100Straight
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Oldrum, I didn't keep the failure to fires, but the test will be when I go out this Saturday. Last Saturday I mainly only shot my own reloads through fired the top barrel. The failures were my buddies the Wednesday previous. but one failed to fire either through my top or bottom. I am going to make up my own reloads for this weekend. Some AA and some Gun Clubs. Some with Cheddite and some CCI primers, but I bet I don't have a single FTF with either in either barrel. My griends reloads were Noble Sports in AA hulls.
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Old June 29, 2013, 11:40 PM   #16
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D1S, usally good thing to keep FTF. You can take them apart to see the problem.
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Old June 30, 2013, 03:07 AM   #17
Dreaming100Straight
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In the future I will heed your advice and autopsy any FTFs
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