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Old June 20, 2013, 05:01 PM   #1
tkvalead
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9mm and Red Dot

I am so new to reloading I have yet to make a real bullet. I have some 124 LRN cast bullets and Red Dot powder. I'm concerned about the OAL. The bullet can be no longer then 1.070. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

thomas
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Old June 20, 2013, 08:37 PM   #2
Sure shot wv
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I can't help you on your powder because I've never used it. But here's some insight on 9mm loading. This is what I load the most of.

The max COAL ( cartridge over all length ) is 1.169. Your 1.070 is very short. Your length will vary depending on your bullet profile your using. For instance I have some with a 1.130 COL and some with a 1.160 COL. Keeping powder charge the same and changing your overall length can drastically change the round. Pressure is the big thing to watch for especially with short overall lengths.

Have you read any manuals? Have you figured out your chambers max OAL? I don't wanna get into to much here without knowing a little more background first.
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Old June 20, 2013, 08:42 PM   #3
GJSchulze
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Why do you say "no longer than 1.070?" That's relatively short; I load my 147gr FMJ-TC at 1.13 to 1.14 (of course they are longer than 124gr bullets). SAAMI standard max OAL for 9mm is 1.169. A longer OAL will reduce pressure and velocity; shorter will increase both. If the load data specifies 1.07 as the OAL it usually means not to go shorter than that.
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Old June 20, 2013, 08:46 PM   #4
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Why can't the bullet be longer than 1.070"?

I load 125 gr RN lead for a variety of 9mm's and they all accept 1.169". I am including my maximum chamber lengths on the 9mm's I load for. So you can see how much free board I have when loading to the SAAMI max length.

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Old June 20, 2013, 08:46 PM   #5
BigD_in_FL
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Alliant does not show any loads for Red Dot and 9mm. Red Dot is a great powder for 12 gauge target loads, 38, 45, and some others:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...spx?powderid=4

but not, it seems, for 9mm
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Old June 20, 2013, 11:14 PM   #6
steve4102
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Quote:
Why can't the bullet be longer than 1.070"?
I would like to know why you think this as well.
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Old June 20, 2013, 11:32 PM   #7
Marco Califo
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Yes, you can use Red Dot for 9mm

Yes, you can use Red Dot for 9mm. See the 1992 Hecules pamphlet here:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...M/Alliant.html
Alliant is the successor company that now owns the Hercules (renamed Alliant) line. The current Alliant website has been trimmed of many old loads, as they have added newer powders. But the old Hercules line of Red and Green Dots, Unique, Bullseye, etc. are still sold in huge sales volumes and work just fine. Blue Dot is a magnum shotshell powder and can be used in 9mm 147 grn. bullet loads, but you wont try that until later. Everyone says Blue Dot is dirty, but that has more to do with the pressure needed to fully burn that slow powder (you would only use it for heavy bullet loads).
Note that the COAL, as everyone else is telling you, are longer than you stated.

One more thing: If you have Red Dot on hand now, or are going to use it for shotshell loads too, great. However, Power Pistol is a newer Alliant pistol powder that is more perfectly suited to 9mm and 40 SW. But, you would not use Power Pistol in shotshells. Power Pistol meters better than the flake/disc shotshell powders for pistol loads. So, if you are only going to load 9mm, look for Power Pistol. Bullseye is another very good Alliant Pistol powder.
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Last edited by Marco Califo; June 20, 2013 at 11:41 PM. Reason: Yes. One.
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Old June 21, 2013, 05:11 AM   #8
Salmoneye
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Alliant most assuredly USED to list Red Dot for 9mm when they published a paper loading handbook...

The last one I have is 2004, and it lists:

125gr Lead
Win WSP Primer
4.5gr Red Dot MAX LOAD
1,145 FPS

The link to this manual online is now dead...
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Old June 21, 2013, 07:14 AM   #9
mineralman55
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Red Dot In 9mm

Red Dot is a fine powder in the 9mm with a variety of bullets.

115 Ranier plated LRN: 3.7-4.5 grains, 1.135"LOA
125 LRN: 3.2-4.6 grains, 1.150"LOA

YMMV.
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Old June 21, 2013, 12:41 PM   #10
Dakotared
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I cast my own 9mm bullets and use the 124gr TC tumble lube design. The Max length I can load this bullet to is 1.090 So yes it depends on the bullet you use will depend on the over all length. If I try to go out more the bullet hits the riffling.

I have loaded this up with W231 and red dot but I am not at home now and that is where I have all my notes so I can not advise on to much right now.

I guess my main point of all this is that some bullets the way they are made will require a shorter OAL.
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Old June 21, 2013, 06:51 PM   #11
tkvalead
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I have a CZ 75 P01 and when making a dumby bullet I used a Lee seating die and would seat a little at a time. I would try putting the bullet into the barrel for a fit. When I got it to fit into the barrel it was only 1.070 OAL. The cast LRN are not tapered as much as my Berry plated bullet. I can load a 1.169 with the Berry. I think I will hang onto the lead bullets until I learn more about reloading. Thank all you gentlemen for your response.
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Old June 21, 2013, 09:24 PM   #12
BigD_in_FL
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Quote:
Yes, you can use Red Dot for 9mm. See the 1992 Hecules pamphlet here:
Sorry, I find this irresponsible - data that is over 20 years old? REALLY? Powder formulas change, manufacturing processes change. Either use the latest data or take your chances with your fingers and eyes. CURRENT data does not show it on their website.
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Old June 21, 2013, 09:35 PM   #13
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Here's the 2005 manual. They dropped most of the cast bullet loads in 2006:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre.../Alliant05.pdf
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Old June 22, 2013, 09:20 PM   #14
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Red Dot was re-formulated back a few years ago to be cleaner burning. Promo was introduced as a cost-saving alternative to Red Dot. Rumor was that Promo is the old formulation of Red Dot. About that same time Alliant stopped listing Red Dot as pistol powder in their manuals and the website.

Since it is no longer listed in the current manuals I would not take a chance on using the "new" formulation of Red Dot. Nor would I trust the rumor that promo is the same as "old" Red Dot. That is just my opinion. You could always call or e-mail Alliant and get the story on current Red Dot from them.

I am lucky to have a good supply of "old" formula Red Dot from about 1994 that works well in 9mm loads. Red Dot is rather bulky so you want to watch your shorter OAL and deeper seated bullets to be sure you do not compress the powder. Red Dot also is sort of dirty/sooty compared to a modern powder such as TiteGroup.
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Old June 23, 2013, 09:31 AM   #15
WESHOOT2
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Coke vs new Coke vs really old Coke

Improved, refined, and/or new measuring techniques teach the powder makers new things about their data.
Sometimes what they learn makes them refine the data they offer.

Things like:
-"supersedes all previous data published"
-"tested to simulate muzzle up / muzzle down"
-"tested from -40F to 140F"
-"in some cases, certain loads were not included for safety reasons"
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Old June 23, 2013, 09:52 PM   #16
pelo801
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The 49th Lyman manual lists 3.0-3.9 gr red dot for 120 gr lead 9mm bullet that gives you 919-1140 fps.
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Old June 24, 2013, 11:13 AM   #17
Marco Califo
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Straight from Alliant/ATK

Alliant/ ATK-Amonette, Ben <Ben.Amonette@ATK.COM> emailed my these 9mm loads today, including RED DOT!
9mm Luger


115 gr lead bullet
Red Dot start 3.7 grs max 4.2 grs
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Green Dot start 4.2 grs max 4.7 grs
Unique start 4.5 max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

115 gr jacketed bullet
Red Dot start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
Bullseye start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Green Dot start 4.2 grs max 4.7 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5.5 grs
Power Pistol start 5.9 grs max 6.3 grs

124/125 gr lead
Red Dot start 3.6 grs max 4.1 grs
Bullseye start 3.8 grs max 4.3 grs
Green Dot start 3.9 grs max 4.4 grs
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.8 grs max 5.3 grs

124/125 gr jacketed
Red Dot start 3.7 grs max 4.2 grs
Bullseye start 3.9 grs max 4.3 grs
Green Dot start 4.1 grs max 4.5 grs
Unique start 4.5 grs max 5 grs
Power Pistol start 5 grs max 5.5 grs

147 gr lead
Bullseye start 2.8 grs max 3.3 grs
Green Dot start 3 grs max 3.4 grs
Unique start 3.2 grs max 3.6 grs
Power Pistol start 4 grs max 4.5 grs

147 gr jacketed
Unique start 4 grs max 4.5 grs
Power Pistol start 4.5 grs max 5 grs

Note: Start with the minimum charge wt. Reload just a few and be sure they will properly cycle the action of your pistol before reloading a quantity.
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Old June 24, 2013, 11:17 AM   #18
Marco Califo
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Hey BigD and WESHOOT2
Quote:
Quote:
Yes, you can use Red Dot for 9mm. See the 1992 Hecules pamphlet here:
Sorry, I find this irresponsible - data that is over 20 years old? REALLY? Powder formulas change, manufacturing processes change. Either use the latest data or take your chances with your fingers and eyes. CURRENT data does not show it on their website.
I find it irresponsible that you post a nastygram like this when you do not know what you think you know. Please see my post immediately above. Alliant does have Reddot load data they will be happy to send to you on request.
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Last edited by Marco Califo; June 24, 2013 at 11:28 AM.
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Old June 24, 2013, 03:53 PM   #19
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I have shot thousands of 124gr lead 9mm bullets using 4 grains of Red Dot. I went through a couple hundred Saturday in my Kahr CM9 and M&P. I get no leading and have no penetration problems on card board targets.

I have been using that load for at least 30 years and never had a problem in anything I've used it in.

My personal experience, yours may be different.
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Old June 24, 2013, 08:01 PM   #20
rlc323
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Thanks Marco for checking it out

Good to hear that Alliant still has pistol information for Red and Green Dot. I still have a lot of "old" Red Dot but eventually I will run out.

I shoot a lot of trap and try to load 9mm loads with what I have on hand to save a few dollars and shelf space. Red Dot and Green Dot are easy to get when suppliers come to the bigger shoots, so that info is good news for the future.

Just guessing, but Alliant maybe is not printing that Red Dot data in the book anymore to help bump the sale of their pistol specific powders.
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Old June 24, 2013, 11:01 PM   #21
Marco Califo
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Quote:
Alliant maybe is not printing that Red Dot data in the book anymore to help bump the sale of their pistol specific powders.
I agree with you. I also agree with Alliant. I still have some Red Dot. But I really like Power Pistol, which is a better powder for 9mm and 40SW. But the old data does still apply, and was never retracted.
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Old June 27, 2013, 05:02 PM   #22
tkvalead
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Thank all you gentlemen out their that responded to my post. I will certainly use the information for perfecting my loads.
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