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Old June 25, 2013, 09:37 AM   #1
buskeen
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Remington 700 .308 (Factory)

Hello shooters,
I am new to this forum so I hope this is the right place to post this. I bought a new Remington 700, .308 with a 20" Tactical Barrel - 1:10 twist. Has a Weaver T-Series 36 power scope on it. The gun shoots terribly at anything other than 100 yards even with hand loads. Factory loads were 167, 168 & 175 gr Lapua, Federal & Black Hills in that order. I measured the case neck OD after firing at ~0.345". This is about ten thousandths more than a loaded factory cartridge neck size OD, (average I measured betwen Federal, Black Hills and Laupua was about 0.335 - 0.338" depending on manufacturer). It is so wide that I can drop a bullet into the fired catrdridge! Never had a .308 before. I am a 6.5mm Creedmoor enthusiast at the moment.
I am asking you .308 experts if this is excessive exapansion or is this normal for a factory chamber?
BTW, I plan on replacing the barrel with a custom one, but I just wanted to know. My goal is improved accuracy out to 600 yards. I know what does improved mean? OK, 1 MOA at 600?
Thanks in advance for any advice / help you guys can provide.
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Old June 25, 2013, 01:39 PM   #2
csmsss
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Might not be a bad idea to get a cast of your chamber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8jE2o7ePbo
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Old June 25, 2013, 02:26 PM   #3
TATER
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Yes, Common for a bullet to be dropped in a fired case. Yes, There is room for improvement, Bedding, Free floating and Some polishing of the bore. Ect…
Unless it's a freak on nature, 1 moa @ 600…. Not likely… with a factory barrel..
And Well, You Sir, Have Great expectations or are one hell of a Shooter..
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Old June 25, 2013, 02:33 PM   #4
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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See I am going to have to disagree with TATER. I have an SPS Tactical AAC-SD and it is still MOA or slightly sub MOA at 600 with my hand loads. I have owned two of these and both are great shooters. If you change the barrel, go through the works with lapping and truing it. I have a custom 300WM that was built as a bench rest rifle by one of my close friends, it is better than 1/2 MOA at longer ranges than 600 yards...
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Old June 25, 2013, 02:58 PM   #5
csmsss
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1 MOA is 1 MOA as far as the rifle is concerned - it's the variables introduced by the human frailties of the shooter that makes it a more difficult accomplishment than 1 MOA at, say, 200 yards.
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Old June 25, 2013, 03:07 PM   #6
TATER
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Yes,
But, His designation starts at 600. That would reshuffle the clock..
1 moa at 600 would translate to .165 min. at a 100.. Would it not?

Last edited by TATER; June 25, 2013 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Clarification,
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Old June 25, 2013, 03:26 PM   #7
Bake
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No, MOA is about 1" at 100 yds, 2" at 200 yds, 3" at 300 yds and so on & so on. At 600yds, MOA would be about 6.6"...

Let the "IPC" begin...
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Old June 25, 2013, 03:44 PM   #8
TATER
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Ya'll are right, I was assuming the OP was calling for 1" at 600, Otherwise he would have
Said MOA or better.. and left out the 600.

Last edited by TATER; June 25, 2013 at 03:58 PM.
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Old June 25, 2013, 03:55 PM   #9
Jimro
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Quote:
I am asking you .308 experts if this is excessive exapansion or is this normal for a factory chamber?
Quite normal. SAAMI specs max neck diameter for 308 loaded ammo at .3433" that your fired brass measures 0.345 is well within spec.

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Old June 25, 2013, 03:57 PM   #10
buskeen
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Tater,
I know I'll never get 1 MOA with my current barrel. I meant with a custom and having it trued, etc. etc etc. It has a custom stock with aluminum bedding. The guy who sold it to me did that at least and it is free floating.
BTW I get sub-MOA at 600 with my Creedmoor. That's easy. I've seen guys with 308's do it all the time.
Going with Krieger, 26", 1-10 or 1-11 twist. Have 30" Krieger on my Creedmoor and I love it.
Thanks all......
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Old June 25, 2013, 04:06 PM   #11
TATER
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No,No, Forget what I said, I was working from a false presumption. CharlieDeltaJuliet is absolutely right..
I have a buddy that routinely outshoots me with SPS and a Loupold fixed 10X..
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Old June 25, 2013, 04:10 PM   #12
csmsss
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Yeah, 1" at 600 yards would be, well...I don't think there's a shooter on earth who could do that other than by sheer luck.
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Old June 25, 2013, 04:42 PM   #13
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Re: Remington 700 .308 (Factory)

Quote:
Originally Posted by csmsss View Post
Yeah, 1" at 600 yards would be, well...I don't think there's a shooter on earth who could do that other than by sheer luck.
Well, I think the record at 1,000 yards is slightly over 2". That would be a shooter who is capable.
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Old June 25, 2013, 05:23 PM   #14
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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Trust me TATER, I see what you thought, that's what I read it as at first. Back to Buskeen, you should be able to get 1 MOA out of the rifle. If it is new and is not shooting 1 MOA, I would call Remington. They might have a look at it and test fire it. Both of the SPS Tactical I have owned (previous and current) shoot about 3/4 MOA from the factory. I will try to get the video camera out with it this weekend and show how it groups. It is a great shooting factory rifle.
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Old June 25, 2013, 05:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
I know I'll never get 1 MOA with my current barrel
Why not? I get MOA with a bone stock Remington 700 ADL, made in 1983 and it's still wearing its factory barrel. If the barrel isn't shot out, MOA is fairly easy to achieve.



Most factory rifles nowadays are easily capable of MOA shooting. That wasn't the case 30 years ago, but nowadays most of us take a 1-inch rifle as a basic requirement for bolt rifles.

Try the rifle before you take the barrel off. It may surprise you.
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Old June 25, 2013, 09:21 PM   #16
steveNChunter
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Quote:
1 MOA is 1 MOA as far as the rifle is concerned -
Exactly. Alot of people misunderstand the term MOA and believe it means an inch no matter what distance you are shooting. As others have already said, its an inch (technically 1.047 inches per the official formula) at 100 yards. Then add an inch for every 100 yards thereafter. So to be exact, 1 MOA at 600 yards is 1.047 x 6 = 6.282" center-to-center spread.

Groups do often open up relative to MOA at longer ranges but it is usually due to either wind, the shooter, or the optics.
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Old June 26, 2013, 02:01 PM   #17
buskeen
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To CharlieDeltaJuliet and PawPaw.
At what distance is that? Nice group PawPaw but no distance shown. I suspect it is 100 yards?
Mine will shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards all day; but not at 200 and beyond. Get over 3" groups at 200 yards and 5" groups at 300 yards. Best I can do even on a high $$ Sinclair Bench Rest with all the bells and whistles.
I think it is a crappy chamber so it is going in the scrap bin with other factory barrels. I might make a lamp out of it or something. LOL!
I bought the gun because I got it with scope, case, McMillan bipod and custom stock, never been shot for $700. Couldn't pass it up,if you know what I mean.
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Old June 26, 2013, 03:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buskeen
At what distance is that? Nice group PawPaw but no distance shown. I suspect it is 100 yards?
Yeah, that's at 100 yards. I thought it was a nice group, that's why I kept it.
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Old June 26, 2013, 03:26 PM   #19
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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It shouldn't change that much past 200.. That is weird. I would call Remington. They might want to look at it. I don't have pictures of my groups from my .308. But it is still sub MOA at 600 yards. That is as far as I have shot it.
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Old June 26, 2013, 03:34 PM   #20
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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Here is a three round group at 100 yards though with my custom 300WM. Customizing the rifle might get you better results but I am still puzzled by he loss of accuracy.


Here is he same rifle at 302 yards(3 shot group) on a steel man sized target. Mind you, this was the builders competition rifle.


The center shot is hard to see, the other two bent he metal around it.
Close up of it
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Old June 26, 2013, 03:36 PM   #21
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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Your rifle should be an MOA rifle. Most are out of the box nowadays.
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Old June 26, 2013, 03:37 PM   #22
Bart B.
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Traditionaly, one MOA in the USA shooting sports was exactly 1 inch per hundred yards of range. That was based on small bore and high power rifle targets' scoring rings spaced in even inches apart and originated over a hundred years ago

'Twas also based on scope sights with external mounts (Sidle, Lyman, Unertl, El Monte, Fecker, Remington and others) with each click on their 40 tpi screws moving the tube .0002" inch and with the standard 7.2" mount spacing it moved impact exactly one inch at 100 yards. .0002 is 1/3600th of 7.2 inches just like 1 inch is 1/3600th of 100 yards. And metallic rear sights Redfield, Lyman, Gates, Vaver, Warner and others) with their 40 tpi adjustment screws turning 1/3 revolution across 4 clicks moving it .0083333333" which is exactly 1/3600 the distance of the standard 30 inch sight radius of target rifles; 3 MOA per full turn of a knob.

Is this so darned hard to use?????????

A couple of decades ago, this was no longer toloerated by folks who didn't shoot smallbore or high power matches. They had to have the trigonometric values used because they could not comprehend such a simple way of moving sights and bullet impact. But they had no problems with two standards for miles (nautical versus stature) nor mil standards of which there were 4 different ones on this planet.

End of rant.
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Old June 26, 2013, 03:48 PM   #23
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Rant on, Bart.

I tried to explain this very thing to a Tank Gunnery instructor one day and he just about blew a gasket. When we got into minute-of-arc, he really freaked out.

Mils is mils, and inches is inches, until they ain't.
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Old June 26, 2013, 04:05 PM   #24
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Bart B.

I know true mils (6283 mils), US Military Mils (6400 mils), Soviet Military Mils (6000 mils), and I had to look up the obsolete Swedish Mil (6300 mils).

Of course this was all developed for artillery folks and not rifle shooters. Lots of MOA reticle/MOA adjustment scopes are hitting the market now, as many people are intuitively more used to MOA than mil math.

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Old June 26, 2013, 05:01 PM   #25
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Then there's the coaching problems with four or six riflemen on the team and they all don't have the same sight adjustment changes due to sight radiuses as well as lead screw tpi or revolution clicks. One click could be anywhere from 1/6 MOA to 1/2 MOA depending on what's on the gun. With two different ones on the line shooting pairs, when the coach says "One click left" for wind corrections, bullets from both don't make the same change in impact.
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