The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 11, 2013, 07:50 AM   #1
desertstormvet
Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2013
Posts: 33
New Stock - Bedding vs. Floating

I need a bit of an education...I'm chasing better accuracy and looking to buy and have installed on my Remington 700 SPS Varmit a new stock. When I show up to the gunsmith's front door with a rifle and stock, what do I tell him/her to do? Is it simply "put this on" or do I need to talk about bedding the barrel, maintaining a floating barrel, etc?
desertstormvet is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 08:41 AM   #2
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 1,899
The typical bedding with this type of gun is either to bed the action only or bed action plus 2-4" of the barrel. Also, IMHO, it would be quite worthwhile to have pillars installed.

The gunsmith should know what he wants to do to bed or not to bed this gun. Since bedding and or pillar bedding is customer request, I would say you'll need to start the conversation.

Neither is a magic pill. Bedding really works to keep the gun from shooting worse than the barrel is capable of.
Nathan is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 10:47 AM   #3
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,424
I've generally done load development and testing before messing with the bedding. Establish a baseline. Generally for me, 1/2 MOA has been as good as I've wanted. I've had a few rifles that were that good from the git-go. Others, yup, work was needed on the bedding.

My first step has been with tweaking the forearm. Free-float, but just barely clear out at the end. I shim for maybe five pounds of pressure against the barrel, using a strip of kitchen wax paper, folded as needed for thickness. Shooting heats the wax, so probably it's no more than a three-pound push against the barrel. Consistent success with that method. (Courtesy my gunsmith uncle, some forty years ago.)

If that doesn't work, then, yeah, some sort of bedding system for the receiver.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 11:02 AM   #4
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,645
Over decades of competitive shooting in on discipline and noting what those in other disciplines succede with, those who win the matches and set the records do not have anything touching their barrels except the receiver. And they allow lots of room between the stock's fore end so its natural bending from shooting positions will not let it touch the barrel.

I am convinced that anyone believing that pressure, even the slightest amount, put on the barrel any place by the fore end will be repeatable from shot to shot, does not understand all the mechanics involved. This aside, if the receiver's horribly fit to sloppy inletting around it, then some fore end contact will be necessary for the rifle to shoot half way decent as it rests atop something on a bench. But it's zero will change if shot prone, standing or sitting because the stock's pressure on the barrel is not the same for each shooting postion and that make the barrel whip differently between them.

Even a pad an inch or two long under the chamber area has more pressure on it as the barrel heats up from cold to hot and expands in diameter; vertical shot stringing happens but you'll never see it unless you can shoot that rifle with your ammo no worse than 1/4 MOA at 100 yards.

It's easy to measure how much a stock's fore end bends depending on how the rifle's held. Do it and you'll probably be very surprised.

Flat bottom/side receivers don't need pillar bedding. Epoxy bed only the receiver.

Accuracy in rifles is everything being repeatable from shot to shot. Stuff that's not repeatable degrades accuracy.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; June 11, 2013 at 12:21 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 12:04 PM   #5
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 3,258
And so I believe that free-floating and pillar-bedding are the first things I do with a stock on any basic stock rifle, only as Art mentioned I have fired the rifle to get a hold on what I'm looking to make it do and be capable of.
__________________
Thanks for coming!
hooligan1 is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 12:11 PM   #6
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 1,899
Quote:
Even a pad an inch or two long under the chamber area has more pressure on it as the barrel heats up from cold to hot and expands in diameter; vertical shot stringing happens but you'll never see it unless you can shoot that rifle with your ammo no worse than 1/4 MOA at 100 yards.
Bart you have more experience than I likely ever will. In a match rifle, how much of a diameter change are you measuring in the chamber area?

Also, a bit off topic, but looking at the 10/22, how would you bed that action?
Nathan is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 03:29 PM   #7
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,645
Nathan, you can find web sites that show how much steels expand per degree of temperature rise. It's a few millionths of an inch per degree.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/li...ents-d_95.html

I've never measured a barrel for its exact dimensional changes, but it does expand several millionths of an inch.

My only tests back in the 1960's with chamber area pads all started out shooting groups at 600 or 1000 yards, then routing out the epoxy that was 2 inchs in front of the receiver. Bolt guns chambered for .308 Win, .264 Win. Mag. and .30-.338 Win. Mag. Groups had about 1 to 1.5 MOA vertical stringing starting with a cold barrel. For each half inch of the epoxy removed, vertical stringing lessened. So I figured out that if there was zero bedding under the chamber area, there would be zero things to cause vertical shot stringing.

Others have learned this from tests conducted back in the late 1950's and early 1960's when epoxy bedding was first done. But there are some folks who insist on doing it.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 05:38 PM   #8
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,761
I'm one of the folks who bed an inch or two of barrel, just ahead of the receiver. I believe that the extra bedding length helps to increase bedding area, especially in length.

My metallurgy knowledge is not of a mechanical engineer, but have been told that round bars tend to lengthen when heated and that diameter is not as affected. Be that as it may, but many rifles, especially those with flat bottoms have shot better for me when bedded that way, especially for wooden stocks and epoxy bedding. Perhaps if a stock was made of metal, and had almost no flex, the rifle would string vertically, but I've yet to find any stringing.

Regarding 10-22 bedding. I've written several articles on bedding and other accuracy-improving tips, some of which are posted in the Tips and Tricks Forum of RimfireCentral.com. One tip involves how to eliminate first-shot flyers.
__________________
People are like rifles. Some are tried and true, having great eyes, personality, and fun to be with. Others never seem to hit the mark with you. Still others go off half-cocked. Still, it's nice to know most of them.
Picher is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 10:06 PM   #9
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,645
Picher, "tube guns" are made with tubular metal for most of their parts. They hold zeros from day to day much better than wood or synthetic stocks. And not one bit of shot stringing in any direction.

Unlike wood or synthetic stocks, metal expands/contracts less with temperature changes and humidity has no effect whatsoever. No longer does one need to loosen then retouque the stock screws as temperature changes. Anschutz puts wave washers on their free and English match rifle's front and rear wood stock screws to keep them close to the same 20 to 30 inch pounds of torque the owner gets best accuracy with as the environment changes through the day.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 11:05 PM   #10
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
Desertstormvet,

You really do not even know if you need to bed the action before you shoot it. Your gun might be plenty accurate simply by changing the stock that you needn't spend money bedding the action.

Also, with a simple torque wrench you can change the stock yourself. Here is My Remington 700 SPS Varmint after I changed the stock a couple of weeks ago. Now it consistently shoots about 1/4" at 100 yards and 3" at 600.

allaroundhunter is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 12:02 AM   #11
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,429
I build rifles, some pretty good ones, and I agree that the rifle does not need the bedding at the rear of the barrel for accuracy. Some rifles that have issues with the bedding need it for stability and consistency, but in general it is not needed.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 08:47 AM   #12
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 5,874
Barrel should be free floated. Sometimes it helps to bed the recoil lug, sometimes not, but it never hurts.
jmr40 is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 09:33 AM   #13
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 5,421
It really depends on the stock you are using how you bed the rifle. Pillars are only there to stop the stock material from compressing when you tighten down the action screws. Some stocks use a full length bedding block and may not require any bedding at all.

Regardless of wood/laminate or synthetic stocks I like all my stocks to be bedded. With wood and laminated stocks I always bed the barrel channel as well as well as the action just to stabilize the wood and to prevent problems with moisture or lack there of from affecting accuracy. You can free float the barrel as well with a full length bedding just use a few layers of tape on the barrel. Synthetics I usually only bed the action and recoil lug area, and if needed like Scorch says a couple inches of barrel. My synthetics and wood/laminate stocks always get pillars unless they have the bedding block.
__________________
NRA Life Member
The Truth About Guns
taylorce1 is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 09:51 AM   #14
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,424
"I am convinced that anyone believing that pressure, even the slightest amount, put on the barrel any place by the fore end will be repeatable from shot to shot, does not understand all the mechanics involved."

Gigglesnort. Since my deal has worked for me, I don't have to understand it. Just enjoy sub-MOA.

But, hey, Bart, you're most likely correct.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 09:56 AM   #15
Old Stony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 631
Love those Remingtons.... With those heavy barrels, I have had my best luck bedding the action and lug and maybe 1 1/2 inches forward of the lug, and then free floating the barrel. I never have had one of the heavy barreled Remingtons that wouldn't shoot great with that treatment, but I readily admit my experience with pillar bedding is very limited. Guys seem to have very good lucky with those as well.
Old Stony is offline  
Old June 15, 2013, 07:00 AM   #16
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,761
Quote from Bart:
Quote:
Picher, "tube guns" are made with tubular metal for most of their parts. They hold zeros from day to day much better than wood or synthetic stocks. And not one bit of shot stringing in any direction.
Absolutely right Bart. However, I'm not a 3P shooter and abhor the thought of shooting an all-metal rifle. They seem like something a robot would use. I don't even like synthetic stocks, but have them on benchrest and deer hunting rifles.

I've pillar-bedded most of my wood-stocked rifles and find them more comfortable to use in both hot and cold weather. They don't seem to shift POI and are quiet in the woods/brush.

A couple of days ago, I shot a two of my wood-stocked pillar-bedded sporters, a .243 Remington 700 and a .223 Tikka 595, testing new loads and they made (3 shot), 1/2" and 3/8" groups respectively at 100 yards. (Vertical dispersion was .2" and .1"), but there was a bit of variable crosswind and I wasn't using wind flags. Not bad for "old" technology.
__________________
People are like rifles. Some are tried and true, having great eyes, personality, and fun to be with. Others never seem to hit the mark with you. Still others go off half-cocked. Still, it's nice to know most of them.
Picher is offline  
Old June 19, 2013, 09:37 AM   #17
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,645
I believe most of the records in NRA high power bolt action match rifle competition are held by rifles with conventional epoxy bedding; none are pillar bedded. The philosopsy of the 'smith building those few which hold more than their fair share of the records is that pillar bedding only has 2 or 3 hard contact points against the receiver's bottom. Conventional epoxy bedding has most all of the receiver bottom hard against the bedding.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old June 22, 2013, 02:40 AM   #18
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,067
I like pillars and bedding to include recoil lug an forward of the lug under chamber. My latest build has these pillars

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...-prod6908.aspx
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam
VFW
old roper is offline  
Old June 22, 2013, 10:33 PM   #19
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,280
I have a question related to the OP's topic.

Has anyone tried the "drop-in" aluminum bedding block for the Model 700? What has to be done to the stock to make it work? I would assume drilling for the pillars at least. Its more costly than a glass bedding kit but looks like it would be quicker and easier installation. It should also lift the action slightly allowing the barrel to float. Just wondering if they were worth the money. If so it might be something for the OP to look into.

__________________
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood

Last edited by steveNChunter; June 22, 2013 at 10:40 PM.
steveNChunter is offline  
Old June 22, 2013, 10:57 PM   #20
allaroundhunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
Re: New Stock - Bedding vs. Floating

If it is "drop in" then theoretically no modifications would be required. Have I use one? Nah, I just bought a nicer Bell and Carlson stock that had it already and called it good.
allaroundhunter is offline  
Old June 23, 2013, 06:09 AM   #21
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,645
It has to be inletted then glued into the stock else it'll not be in the same place for each shot.

Ain't the purpose of bedding to make the barreled action be in the exact same place with the same tension to the stock for every shot?
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; June 23, 2013 at 06:18 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old June 23, 2013, 10:35 AM   #22
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,761
I like the bedding block in my HS Precision (Sendero) stock on my Rem 700 BDL, but put a skim-coat of epoxy on it to make a perfect fit. The rifle shoots really well. There's extra space on each side of the sporter barrel, but I haven't wanted to fill it in. The barrel cools faster this way.
__________________
People are like rifles. Some are tried and true, having great eyes, personality, and fun to be with. Others never seem to hit the mark with you. Still others go off half-cocked. Still, it's nice to know most of them.
Picher is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12457 seconds with 9 queries