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Old June 13, 2013, 01:06 PM   #26
RC20
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I'd be surprised to see a Mini-30 (even new production) that is any more accurate than a good AK. My converted 7.62x39mm Saiga can shoot 2-2.5 MOA all day long with decent ammo.

The Mini-30 is a fine rifle. However, it's hard to truly compare to an AK. One is designed as a combat rifle designed to function life-or-death situations. The other is a general-purpose consumer-oriented firearm designed to ride around in your pickup.
And your point is? The OP posted it very well.

And how much combat do we see on an average day? Now granted, I fought a running battle with Terrorists on the way home last night (them that mosquitoes are just viscous I tell you). Despite the extended combat, relatively little blood was shed though causalities on the other side were high.

As much as I like my AK (its interesting and was given to me by a friend just before he passed as a result of a shred interest) the accuracy is generally poor, the sights are awful and the ergonomics would make a grown man weep (could they have done it any worse if they tired, well there is the AR)

While you can do things to improve factory guns now, the AK is stuck with its limited design. You can't put jet engines on a DC3.

I would take the Mini 30 or the 580 any day of the week if I wanted a quality gun that would more than serve the most arduous duty it will ever see and I suspect it would do outstanding in combat as well. Its got great pedigree.

In short, the Ruggers are relevant for the world they are in and the AKs are a relic of the past. An interesting one, but a relic. We don't fly DC3s other than as a curiosity anymore either.

Good to hear that the accuracy of the 580s may be up to snuff, always fun to shoot an accurate rifle vs a lame one.
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Old June 13, 2013, 02:19 PM   #27
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Here's a Good explanation from AK47world.com that backs up what I'm saying about the thin AK receivers:

The GALIL AK's, F.E.G.'s from Hungary, Arsenal of Bulgaria, and Russian AK's were all tested against the Chinese Norinco, and the Norinco (same essential receiver as Polytech) came out on top as the most rugged, and best value, despite the fact that it would have been easier for Finland and the Navy Seals to buy AK-47 variants from other Eastern European, or Russian sources.

Finally, Norinco of China, Zastava of Yugoslavia, and Valmet/Sako of Finland all use at least 1.5mm steel for their stamped receivers on their AK variants, thus eliminating the need for a "mickey-mouse" anti-trip device (band-aid that does not solve the problem of too thin of receiver) found in the trigger groups of thinner 1mm steel receivers of Warsaw-Pact AKM's.

AKM is the Russian term of: Avtomat Kalashnikova Modernizya , which means modernized AK-47, referring to the stamped AKM of 1968, versus the milled AK-47 of 1947.

Warsaw-Pact AKM's include: Soviet/Russian mfg.,F.E.G. of Hungary (SA-85's, etc.), and Romanian W.U.M.-1's, W.U.M.-2's, S.A.R.1, S.A.R.2, S.A.R. 3's, as well as Maadi AKM's, RML, RPM, and the MISR.

What does receiver thickness and the lack of "mickey-mouse" anti-trip device that only complicates your trigger group, mean to AKM performance???

Simple, if you only fire your thinner receiver AKM variants lightly, you usually won't have any problems.

But if you need more out of your AK, like sustained fire/rapid fire, like with 75, or 100 round drums, or with other "extreme situations", the thicker 1.5mm stamped receivers found in Norinco, Valmet/Sako, and Zastava/Serbian rifles are more durable.

This means the thicker 1.5mm receiver AK's are a lot less likely to experience malfunctions like the thinner 1mm receiver AK's do, when the thicker receiver Chinese, Yugoslavian, or Valmet's get hot under rapid fire, sustained-fire situations, because there's less "fatigue", thus "flex" & jams, in the thicker 1.5mm steel receivers, than in the thinner-walled receivers of the Warsaw-Pact AKM-type rifles.
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Old June 13, 2013, 04:19 PM   #28
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But if you need more out of your AK, like sustained fire/rapid fire, like with 75, or 100 round drums, or with other "extreme situations", the thicker 1.5mm stamped receivers found in Norinco, Valmet/Sako, and Zastava/Serbian rifles are more durable.
Irrelevant. A Russian infantryman carrying an AK-74M is not issued 100-round drums, and will not be doing 100-round mag dumps. That's why the RPK (and PKM) exist. The Soviets evaluated real-world needs, and the need was for a lighter rifle that was more easily manufactured and more resistant to frame cracking. Thus the stamped design.

Also, this "copy & paste" fails to mention anything about the stamped receivers' greater resistance to cracking versus milled receivers (hence the longer service life).
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Old June 13, 2013, 04:26 PM   #29
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I'd be surprised to see a Mini-30 (even new production) that is any more accurate than a good AK. My converted 7.62x39mm Saiga can shoot 2-2.5 MOA all day long with decent ammo.

The Mini-30 is a fine rifle. However, it's hard to truly compare to an AK. One is designed as a combat rifle designed to function life-or-death situations. The other is a general-purpose consumer-oriented firearm designed to ride around in your pickup.

Quote:
And your point is? The OP posted it very well.
Last I checked, this was an open message board. The OP started a "versus" thread, and noted a number of similarities between the Mini-30 and the AK design.

I simply noted one major difference - what the rifles were designed for.

I also corrected his incorrect statement that the Mini-30 was "way more accurate" than an AK-pattern rifle. That is simply not true.
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Old June 14, 2013, 06:54 AM   #30
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Lots of bad info and incorrect personal opinion in this thread. Such as The "poor" scope mounts...
The AK scope mount allows a quick attach/detach along with return to zero...what's poor about that?
IMHO, the reputation for bad accuracy in the AK is due low expectations, and the failure to apply shooting basics such as sight picture, breathing control, and proper trigger pull.
BTW, I never heard of the "AK47World.com" site which skans cut and pasted in his post as definitive proof of how flimsy 1mm receivers are. This, despite my having been involved in shooting AK's since the 1980's, and having been around Internet AK sites since shortly after that.
I checked out that site this morning. What a collection of nonsense. It is certainly a site I will never visit again. Filled with half truths and opinion, while selling overpriced AK accessories and ammo. It claims to have the last few cans of 5.45 7n6 ammo, when a quick google reveals the ammo is still widely available. It repeatedly states they sell no rifles, yet seems to have ads for rifles(?). I wouldn't trust a thing on that site.
Too bad my 5.45 Saiga has that flimsy 1mm receiver. Maybe it would be more accurate then.
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Last edited by amd6547; June 14, 2013 at 08:23 AM.
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Old June 18, 2013, 10:46 PM   #31
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I began to be worried that I would be here all night dispelling myths and misinformation regarding the AK style rifle. Luckily some have stepped in and correctly informed the group.

While I will admit that I have never shot a Mini I will say that it holds no allure for me. I have shot a couple ARs and AK patterned rifles and the AK is my favorite.

I honestly don't understand why some are comparing their canted sighted Century builds to a Mini. The Mini is much more expensive (generally). If you spent the same amount of money on an AK style rifle as you would on a Mini you would have a much better AK than the Century that is being trashed on here. If I were even able to find a Mini for Century WASR amount of money I can almost gaurantee you the WASR would be more reliable and possibly more accurate (with MUCH cheaper and more available mags).

Let's compare apples to apples here folks... Mini 30 $$$ would get you somewhere in the range of an Arsenal AK.

Oh and BTW that Ak47world site is one hot mess, they can't decide if they are going to run a business or go into business with Infowars. I don't trust one word on that site.

Last edited by Yung.gunr; June 18, 2013 at 10:56 PM.
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Old June 19, 2013, 03:10 PM   #32
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If not for the police assistance program in the 80's that gave the police the option to buy ex-millitary m16's for the price of shipping, the mini would probabilly still be widely use by law inforcemet today.

The mini was well proven my police many years ago.

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Old June 19, 2013, 03:39 PM   #33
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If not for the police assistance program in the 80's that gave the police the option to buy ex-millitary m16's for the price of shipping, the mini would probabilly still be widely use by law inforcemet today.
...and yet our local sheriff's department was thrilled to be replacing their Minis with AR-15 carbines a few years ago. They had no love for the Mini.
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Old June 19, 2013, 04:44 PM   #34
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Their biased opinion is because many vets have joined the police forces and they are use to thst style weapons. I stands to reason.


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Old June 19, 2013, 09:37 PM   #35
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Their biased opinion is because many vets have joined the police forces and they are use to thst style weapons. I stands to reason.
Actually surprisingly few of them are vets. The ARs are just better rifles for the job.
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Old June 21, 2013, 03:10 AM   #36
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RC20:
Maybe turbofans would have been difficult, but some DC-3s were adapted to PT-6 turboprop (turbine) engines. Loss of an engine after V1 might have required a higher Vmc speed, if they produced more power than the classic recip engines.

Along with some of you guys, I don't like the AK's original sights at all.

But a guy named "brandon401401" hits gongs from 200+ yards with his WASR, in a free stance using the original iron sights.
You might to observe his wife's nice shooting (or looks...).
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Old June 21, 2013, 02:55 PM   #37
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Fishbed...

You don't no many cops or vets do you. Over 10,000 GW1 vets became some form of law officers in the 90's alone. But none of them would want a rifle they were use to right? I guess they'd rather start the learning curve over with a new rifle. Just for fun.


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Old June 21, 2013, 09:00 PM   #38
Fishbed77
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Fishbed...

You don't no many cops or vets do you. Over 10,000 GW1 vets became some form of law officers in the 90's alone. But none of them would want a rifle they were use to right? I guess they'd rather start the learning curve over with a new rifle. Just for fun.
Boomer,

Thanks for telling me you know my local cops better than I do. Pretty amazing since I have known most of them my entire life and you have not.

.

Last edited by Fishbed77; June 21, 2013 at 09:36 PM.
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Old June 22, 2013, 09:30 AM   #39
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Enough with the strawmen and red herrings.
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