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Old June 20, 2013, 04:37 PM   #51
publius
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SGTLUMPY got it right. I visit Waco, TX often and there are A LOT of homeless there. Several years ago I decided that if someone was obviously walking toward me (not passing me walking to or from the restaurant or store entrance) but someone who has made eye contact or whose body language indicates that they have keyed in on me; I will in no uncertain terms tell the them that they are close enough and to stop, look for an escape route and get ready to draw if needed. I have had to do it several times. So you might hurt someone's feelings who were harmless, boohoo for them.
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Old June 20, 2013, 04:52 PM   #52
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Four wild guesses on your part.

...The opposite conclusions would still be wild guesses.
Yes they would be. And much more safe and sane.

This guy, no matter what his intentions that none of us know, scared this 18 y/o girl enough for her to go find a cop to walk her back to her car. Scared her enough to text her boyfriend to tell him something scared her.

Apparently she didn't want him in her space. If you're trying to suggest that she over-reacted and should have allowed into her space a homeless guy saying "I won't hurt you" that seems really misdirected.

If something like that happened to your daughter, how would you teach her to react?

I don't care if the guy's an axe murder or a Salvation Army bell ringer. I don't want them in my space. And I'm prepared to verbally command them to not approach.


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Old June 20, 2013, 05:46 PM   #53
Jammer Six
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After her first response of "no thank you", he is no longer a salesperson but an assailant subject to arrest and imprisonment. Keep that in mind when you want to approach someone to sell them something. Just as to a rapist "NO" means "NO", anything else then is a criminal act. Assault, battery, reckless endangerment you name it, it WILL be used against you.
In Washington state, these statements have no merit.

Both assault and battery have extremely specific definitions, and continuing to talk to you after you've said "no" doesn't meet them.
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Old June 20, 2013, 05:48 PM   #54
deepcreek
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Usually an armed robber would not choose a wal-mart parking lot to rob someone with cameras and a steady steam of witness.

I don't give beggars money but I have talked to a few. Some of them had interesting stories, some where worthless trash, some were crazy.

-One guy that used to beg in a town I lived in grew up there worked 2 jobs and one day his wife stepped out in front of a bus and it killed her he lost his marbles and ended up on the streets
(I heard the story from people that grew up with him).
-A couple I talked to were skizo crazy too crazy to apply for help so they were just stuck in an endless survival cycle of begging and surviving.
-A couple were savage alcoholics trying to stay drunk.

Just because someone is homeless or a beggar doesn't mean they are a savage zombie that needs to be held at gun point. Keep walking and ignore them, Just part of life in the city.
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Old June 20, 2013, 05:55 PM   #55
Jammer Six
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Not to mention the opposite: get rude enough with a panhandler and you might turn a non-event into a shooting.

In my book, there's no issue here.

Quote:
If something like that happened to your daughter, how would you teach her to react?
My daughter is in her early thirties, and I taught her how to react many, many years ago. I taught her to be kind, to be polite, to give money if she felt like it and that there was almost never anything there to fear.

What did you teach your daughter?
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Old June 20, 2013, 05:56 PM   #56
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Re: Suspicious panhandler in the parking lot

So jammer, if this happened to your daughter you would have told her that she overreacted and should not have wasted the officer's time?
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Old June 20, 2013, 06:00 PM   #57
Jammer Six
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No. I would have told her whatever she did was fine, because she was there and I wasn't.

If she asked the cop for help, that was fine.

If she gave the guy money, that was fine.

And if he's laying dead with a full magazine in him, that's fine, too.

I have no idea where you got your words, but I have my suspicions.

I'm thinking some of you need to start giving the women around you a little more credit. They've survived this long.
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Old June 20, 2013, 06:45 PM   #58
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Using that logic, Jammer Six, you should respect the bad feeling the young lady in this case had.
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Old June 20, 2013, 07:02 PM   #59
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What did you teach your daughter?
That a person, no matter what gender, no matter how dressed, that approaches and says "Miss I won't hurt you" is someone to rapidly get away from.

That's what I'd teach my daughter, son, mom, dad, self, anyone.

In what universe is "Miss, I won't hurt you" an acceptable statement for any stranger to say to someone?



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Old June 20, 2013, 07:02 PM   #60
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Let me chime in again. I have an 18 yr old daughter. If she was walking in store and told man no, that means no. If he persisted, I gave my daughter a lesson to pull her pistol out and aim it at man and tell him again to leave. Here in Texas an 18 yr older doesn't have a right to carry conceiled until 21 but in the real world I believe when a person is mature enough and smart enough and a young lady at that, who's gonna procesucute a young lady for having a pistol for self defense? What you gonna charge them with- unlawful carry? A young lady acting in a mature way just defending her personal space. There's no way if I were the responding to this call that I would cite the young lady. Just tell her she did a good job and tell man that people have their space and they don't want it violated and tell him he's lucky she didn't shoot him. Right/wrong. Just my beliefs. We do things different in these little towns where I live. I guess she could also be charged with Deadly conduct, again here where I live it ain't gonna happen. Lets face it, Our world is so screwed and getting worse. You do bad things and its considered good and good things considered bad. Judicial system is a joke and people have bleeding hearts for all the wrong reasons. Just do right and don't harp on people trying to take care of their self

Last edited by BuckRub; June 20, 2013 at 07:18 PM.
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Old June 20, 2013, 07:36 PM   #61
Jammer Six
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Leake, you're reading what you're watching for rather than what I wrote.

I've never questioned what the young lady thought or did, because that would be against my beliefs. I didn't even question the cop, even though what little has been said about him sounds questionable, at best.

The proper tactical response for just about everything is to drive an Abrams main battle tank and deploy mech infantry into overwatch positions before you make any moves. That will protect you from just about any scenario or trap a civilian in the United States can set up against you. It will even protect you against most police responses, at least for a while.

But it's ridiculous.

So somewhere between the combined arms platoon and "on foot, in a bikini and barefoot", you need to split the hair and decide that this is the point at which the balance is acceptable.

My daughter does not live in fear, because I taught her many, many things other than how to deal with panhandlers. Clearly, we both accept a different point on the scale than what is being promoted here. And we're both cowards.

Furthermore, I don't believe for a second that everyone here does the things that have been listed. (Avoiding all panhandlers, screaming "no" at them, or any of the other testosterone spraying systems mentioned.)

My responses to this thread have not been about the young lady in question, they have been about the ridiculous, fear-based, Sidewalk Commando advice given to a young man with an honest concern.

If the lady feels the need, I suggest classes, and I suggest avoiding male instructors.

I also carry fives (singles if you don't have the means to give fives away) and they go a long ways towards dealing with panhandlers. But that's me, and it's not the way everyone does it, nor is it the way everyone can do it.
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Old June 20, 2013, 07:53 PM   #62
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There's a lot of scammers out there, we never know. I don't have a problem with giving two-three dollars here and there but if a person comes up to me and try's to use the intimidation card, I'll give him 15. 15 rounds pointed straight at his face. I'm glad where I live I've never seen anyone asking for money. I guess they know if they did they'd get treating this way if they acted up so the best way would be to move to the city and prey on the weak (some people).
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Old June 20, 2013, 09:12 PM   #63
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I work in a downtown area where there was a rash of muggings and flash mobs last summer. A lot of people at my work have to walk to and from work to get to public transit at night time or early morning.

I actually got worried enough about my female coworkers to hand out a cans of pepper spray + cs and teach them how to use it. They seemed really comfortable with the idea when I showed them the pink key-chain holsters and told them that what I was holding wasn't a weapon. I asked them do you think a skunk is dangerous? How much do you respect a skunk? If I had one here, how close would you want to be to it? Would you want to make it angry?

I told them they should think like a skunk. A skunk avoids trouble, if it sees you, it turns and keeps moving away but it keeps track of where you are. If you corner a skunk it goes from pacifist to intimidating, telling you to back the #@$%-off. If you don't take the warning, it uses its spray and doesn't stick around for another second. Be that skunk!

They all accepted one and were actually eager to learn how to use it.

I taught them how to protect their face, hold their breath, spray face + chest, toss the can, and run away. I explained how tossing the can made it hard to catch them and and use it against them, how even if they didn't get a perfect shot off, that running away would give the tear gas a chance to blur the vision and make it hard to give chase while choking and coughing. That having used it and escaped, they now had the responsibility to protect their sisters by calling the cops giving a description and letting them know they were covered in UV die.

They wanted me to bring more in, which I did.
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Old June 20, 2013, 10:41 PM   #64
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...but if a person comes up to me and try's to use the intimidation card, I'll give him 15. 15 rounds pointed straight at his face. ...
Clearly that is a disproportionate response.

There's clearly more than one opinion on appropriate response. Whatever your opinion is, I suggest thoroughly running the scenario(s), just as you would in a shooting scenario. Remaining safe and alive with your property intact while being less than friendly with a good guy beats being hurt, dead or having your property stolen while being repeatedly courteous to a bad guy.


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Old June 20, 2013, 10:56 PM   #65
SgtLumpy
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Not to mention the opposite: get rude enough with a panhandler and you might turn a non-event into a shooting.
Now you're getting more and more silly. Sounds like you're now blaming the victim.

If telling a panhandler NO turns the event into a shooting, that pretty much proves that the guy isn't an innocent and wonderful guy. There's some instability there. And it's NOT on the part of the victim.

Look, if someone's begging, he might be a nice guy but he's at the lowest point in his psyche, short of being dead. Here's a guy in survival mode, with no place to sleep and not sure when he'll eat next. Suggesting to an 18 y/o girl or to anyone that it's ok to engage the guy or worse, take out your wallet and start flashing currency, is just plain running against the grain of all kinds of common sense survival.

It's not a zombie response to tell a person, strongly, NO. It's a wise, safe, and overwhelmingly recommended response. It's a response that I can pretty much guarantee is taught by every self defense instructor, woman's awareness class and recommend by every police agency in the universe.

I think, Jammer, you're kind of arguing just for the sake of arguing. That's ok, I guess. You have the right to suggest to your loved ones whatever it is you want in terms of their personal safety. My suggestions are clearly a lot more proactive and safety oriented.

Happy that it's me that teaches the one's I love how to deal with something like ths.


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Old June 21, 2013, 07:08 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by publius
I visit Waco, TX often
I haven't been to Waco in a while, but two must-stops in that town are the Texas Ranger Museum, and there's this ratty old steakhouse outside of town, (can't recall its name) that serves a magnificent steak. It might be time to crank the truck and head west, see what new displays the Rangers have up, and get a good steak.
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Old June 21, 2013, 01:00 PM   #67
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If you think Waco is a hotbed of homelessness you should try SF or Portland.

Look- some good points in this thread. I think:

Be firm, but polite. Preserve what dignity this person might have remaining. I always use a flat "no thanks". Note how I typed that out. Not "NO THANKS!"- just a flat, level, "no thanks". Don't elaborate. Our business is concluded. Farewell. I mean- do you do everything that anybody tells you to do? Really? Healthy boundaries and all that....

I'm pretty sure how *we* respond can influence how they will respond. Life is full of lessons like that. Are we really letting the urchin decide what the next step is? JammerSix isn't blaming the victim- he's making a very, very fine point that I think many people miss.

WallMart parking lots are full of low-level scammers like this. Most of these types aren't even truly homeless- they're living locally, or motel-dwelling, and their panhandling pays the rent. If we had to assign a real number to the percentage of those folks who are real opportunistic criminals- what do we suppose that number is? 2% ? Annoyance? High. Real risk? Low.

By the way- your daughter did just fine. At the end of the day she went home, nobody had to go to the emergency room to get the interocular pressure in their left eye checked...a security guard had to walk to the parking lot- oh well.

And guys- if we're really that concerned about the ladies in our lives- please remember the statistics on who is most likely to assault them. It's someone they know. Not a stranger.
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Old June 21, 2013, 01:47 PM   #68
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One of the past ladies in my life was assaulted as a child by someone she knew - a vagrant her minister father had taken in. Charity is fine, but even "2%" is a risk.

As far as how I respond to panhandlers, I will normally start with direct eye contact and a polite but firm, "No thanks."

If the panhandler gets more assertive, but not implicitly aggressive, I will point out that last I looked, military recruiters were hiring; or, "yeah, the economy sucks, I just got back from Afghanistan."

That usually gives them a hint, if the first "no thanks" did not suffice.

So far, I have not even had to use the Sicilian glare I inherited from my mother's side.
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Old June 21, 2013, 02:03 PM   #69
BuckRub
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The woman did good but what's good? She went to store and asked officer to walk her out. She could have walked out alone but just because she was not injured we say "She did good". What if she was attacked? What would we say? Glad it worked out but I'm guessing she had no plan, well maybe run. She still needs some training in case it goes south the next time. There will be a next time!
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Old June 21, 2013, 02:09 PM   #70
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She did the right thing as the outcome shows, I don't see what else she could or should have done


Quote:
No. I would have told her whatever she did was fine, because she was there and I wasn't.

If she asked the cop for help, that was fine.

If she gave the guy money, that was fine.

And if he's laying dead with a full magazine in him, that's fine, too
You would have thought it was fine if you daughter shot someone for approaching her something that she could end up in jail for.

PS I doubt if similar happened to my wife here she would even tell me as she would not see it as threatening.

Last edited by manta49; June 21, 2013 at 04:15 PM.
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Old June 21, 2013, 04:11 PM   #71
BuckRub
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I don't see where she did anything special. I mean she said no and walked away -wow she did exactly as trained, she did good. ? Yea she did good she walked away! What would she of done if he grabbed her arm? Maybe scream - wow you did good again. What if it were a dark parking lot no cameras or people?- you can't be paranoid , have to keep your cool and think and act. Everytime you don't always have the option to leave or have someone to run to or.... Sometimes you may have to use something's you learned and trained for whether it be grab OC spray and use it, maybe just grab it, maybe grab your gun and sometimes maybe even use it. Even though I'm a police officer in a small town things do sometimes happen after you say no and try to leave. Have calls all the time when people don't have a plan and have to take what they get then report it. We have to have a plan/s for when things go wrong. This world is very far from being perfect. You may have a plan ands train and a situation may still go bad on you but sometimes it just happens that way. But one out of a hundred. The other 99 percent you can do so much to help yourself. Fail to plan equals plan to fail.
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Old June 21, 2013, 04:30 PM   #72
Vanya
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Good doesn't have to mean "special." The situation made her uncomfortable, she did what she thought she needed to do to be (and feel) safe, and everybody walked away. That's a good outcome.

Was this situation out of the ordinary for many of us? Maybe not, but it made her and the OP uncomfortable. There's no need to over-analyze it or bicker over what the "correct" response is in a situation like this. Is she going to start carrying OC and get some self-defense training? I'd bet she is, and I hope Dakota will keep us updated.

I think this one has gone as far as is useful.
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