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Old June 7, 2013, 08:20 AM   #26
Pond, James Pond
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Quote:
It's rumored that a 300g lead bullet over N110 can easily be launched in excess of 1100fps from a short Redhawk.

Safely
As you'll see from my earlier post, the 240gr is no slouch from the 4.2" barrel.

Having looked at availability, I think I'll go for the 320gr flat nose, gas-check bullets from Cast Performance. The only other options are 255, 260 and 275. the 300s are out of stock.

What the heck, eh? If I'm going to develop a single mean load for my .44, I may as well go large and loud!

Based on your prediction, perhaps I can squeeze 1050fps from this 320gr!
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Old June 7, 2013, 06:43 PM   #27
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I'm just going to throw this out there for you James.

You might be a bit better off holding up until they get in some of the 300's. Just recounting some of the many post I have read on another forum by a fellow who dwells on the 44 and heavier cast bullets, you might not be able to get those bigger bullets stabilized well enough from the shorter barrel and lower velocity.

I know I have had issues with the 310 from my full sized RH depending on what velocity I was running them at. I am sure that your not going to be shooting out to 50 or 100 meters, but still in all, if your heavy bullet hits and isn't stable, it isn't going to give you the benefit of the potential penetration you would get if it was. In fact you could quite possibly end up with more penetration from the 240gr load you already have due to the added velocity and stability, and it keeping truer to a straight line while doing so.

What I guess I am tying to get through here is, with the shorter barrel your going to only be getting a limited amount of velocity. Velocity added to barrel lenght equals a faster spin rate. Cut the velocity and the barrel lenght and you get less spin for the velocity you can get. Less spin equals less stability. Granted both the shorter barrel you have and the 7.5" one that I have are both the same twist rate. I however can achieve a higher velocity therefore a faster spin on the same weight bullets to the extent of my top velocities.

Just tossing this out as food for thought. If your interested in reading up on some of his post I will shoot you a PM with his info on it.
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Old June 7, 2013, 08:31 PM   #28
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About Bullets

Mr. Pond, it sounds like you have a problem obtaining components. So, when you can, stock up on all the primers and powders you think you will ever need. You don't ever need to buy bullets as long as you have a bullet mould. Cast your own bullets. Be free from the supply chain.
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Old June 8, 2013, 02:30 AM   #29
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I'm just going to throw this out there for you James.
I see what you're saying and it makes sense. I haven't ordered yet, as I want to check I have enough money, so I have time to rethink.

Quote:
Mr. Pond, it sounds like you have a problem obtaining components. So, when you can, stock up on all the primers and powders you think you will ever need. You don't ever need to buy bullets as long as you have a bullet mould. Cast your own bullets. Be free from the supply chain.
Also a nice idea. Over here, they don't allow you to buy endless supplies of primers or powder. There are legally binding limits to what you can store, both as components and completed rounds, so however I play it, I am still somewhat linked to that supply chain... As for casting, I first want to be sure I can find a steady supply of lead and any other metals for alloys. If not, there is little benefit to my buying all the equipment!!
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Old June 8, 2013, 05:37 AM   #30
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A 255--275g WFN .430" can still penetrate forever.......
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Old June 11, 2013, 12:16 AM   #31
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At the velocities you are talking (less than 1400 fps), there is absolutely no reason to go with a gas check boolit. A plain based boolit will work just fine as long as it is correctly sized (.001-.0015 over groove diameter) and your alloy is not too hard or too soft. A bhn of 12-16 with a proper fitting boolit and good lube will easily handle 1400fps without leading the barrel. And if you are purchasing commercial boolits, the gas checked ones are usually quite a bit more expensive.
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Old June 11, 2013, 03:17 AM   #32
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On the one hand I'd like to know what firing a hot 320gr bullet feels like, I don't want to spend money on something that doesn't fulfill a function.

With this second point in mind, as well as recent posts by Mike/Tx and WESHOOT2, I had a look in my reloading resources. My Lyman 49th actually use a 4" barrel and sure enough, even at max loads, the 300gr bullet is barely past the 1000fps mark. A 320gr bullet would be less.

On the other hand, I find data for 265 and 270gr jacketed bullets giving a max of 1130ish from that 4" barrel, as well as a 267gr cast bullet (closer to my own choice) from the VV manual that gives a max of 1430fps, albeit from a 7" barrel. This could probably generate something closer to 1200fps from my 4" RH.

Gas-check bullets were not actually sought out, simply what Midway Germany offer.

265-275 may then be the best compromise of weight and speed given my barrel length. It would be cheaper, also.
The Ruger is tough, but I don't want to abuse it either!!
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Old June 11, 2013, 08:05 PM   #33
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Well I can say I have had the itch your trying to scratch before and even with the 7.5" barrel of my Redhawk I was a bit let down after spending some hard cash. Just passing along some incite.

Quote:
The Ruger is tough, but I don't want to abuse it either!!
Yea well, I have shot some pretty hefty stuff out of mine, and have yet to hear it holler uncle. Myself on the other hand, have hollered a few unmentionable things after touching off a couple of loads. That said, I just thought top end 300's were rough in the 44 until I touched off a top end 300 in the 454, simply put, WOW.
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Old June 12, 2013, 06:03 AM   #34
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possible vs insane

I note that it's possible to exceed 1400fps with a 320g lead bullet from a 5.5" Redhawk.

It is also possible to compress 12g of Universal under a 300g LTC and fire one shot from a 5.5" Redhawk.
However, it then requires a very large hammer to open its cylinder, and Ruger service........



A .430" 320g, launched at 1100fps, will penetrate considerably.
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Old June 12, 2013, 03:50 PM   #35
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A .430" 320g, launched at 1100fps, will penetrate considerably.
You are a bad influence!!

I had just made my peace and accepted to put the 320gr idea to bed, going with the 275gr instead. And here I am again toying with a bruiser load!

Seriously though, a 320 @ 1100 may penetrate well, but I doubt a 275 @ 1200 won't!! I think I should stick to plan C and go with the 275gr cast bullet.

If I had given in and bought that used 6" Super BlackHawk I saw in .44Mag, then it would be another story!!
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Old June 12, 2013, 08:04 PM   #36
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you'll be 275 grains of WFN fine

Suggest your actual MAXIMUM load be determined most by its controllable nature.
Suggest further that shooting in double-action mode be used to determine 'nature'.
Do NOT give up controllability (note: not a suggestion ).

Most highly recommend all extreme-load development be done with new sized cases only.

Again, a launch speed in excess of 1150fps is normally sufficient for crazy penetration.
(If you can't get that speed with controllability, figure absolute MINIMUM launch velocity exceed 980fps.)



IPSC? Great place to develop fast accurate DA skills.....with softer loads.
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Old June 13, 2013, 02:44 AM   #37
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Suggest your actual MAXIMUM load be determined most by its controllable nature.
Suggest further that shooting in double-action mode be used to determine 'nature'.
Do NOT give up controllability (note: not a suggestion ).
I try to achieve that, but I am so inexperienced with shooting that I don't know where round inaccuracy starts and my inaccuracy stops. Same with control: finding my sight picture takes a little while be it with 9mm or .44 . Only with .22 am I quickish!!

Quote:
Most highly recommend all extreme-load development be done with new sized cases only.
Unfortunately, this is not going to be possible: Midway don't have the Starline I was looking for with no delivery date in sight. Luckily most of my .44 brass has only been fired once. If it has been more than once, then it has likely been mild-ish 200gr plated target rounds.

Quote:
Again, a launch speed in excess of 1150fps is normally sufficient for crazy penetration.
(If you can't get that speed with controllability, figure absolute MINIMUM launch velocity exceed 980fps.)
True, but having put my "realistic assessment" cap on, I think that 320gr from a 4" is pushing the point of diminishing returns: as was pointed out there is only so much you can get out of a 4" barrel, in terms of velocity and recoil management.
So perhaps the more reasonable 275gr WFN will give more useable results, even if I won't have ticked that "hottest, heaviest load from my barrel" box.

Quote:
IPSC? Great place to develop fast accurate DA skills.....with softer loads.
Alas, I would be the only revolver IPSC shooter in the country. Whilst that guarantees me first place in every competition (), it also guarantees me no competitions ()!!
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Old June 13, 2013, 04:25 AM   #38
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What about these?

Hunters Supply Hard Cast Bullets 44 Caliber (430 Diameter) 300 Grain Lead Flat Nose

These come in a box of 50.
Given that I just want to load up a couple of cylinders' worth, leaving 35 or so for load development.
Even if I buy 100, they come in at the same price as 100 of the Cast Performance 275gr bullets, so plenty to find a load that works and being my first choice of 300gr.

Is a Brinell hardness of 15 suitable?
The listing says small to medium game, but is it adequate for Brown Bear?
Regardless of this find, should I still go with the 275gr given my barrel length?
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Old June 13, 2013, 05:47 AM   #39
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you; no mercy

If you are the only Revolver shooter, you will win.
Still go.

If it were MY gun, and MY bear, I would be very happy with that Cast Performance 275g WFNPB over N110, even at 1000fps.

While those 300g Hunters Supply bullets are very good, they may be a bit heavy for plinking/target/training.
Then again, loaded to modest levels, they may be ideal for learning controllable DA shooting.
I mean, AFTER you've loaded lighter lead bullets for 'initial' training



One small note: The bullet, and the bear, will not give much thought about the length of your barrel. Seriously
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Old June 13, 2013, 05:49 AM   #40
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"Minimum 200g, .400", 1,000fps"

MY gun(s), and MY bear, are different. The bear that wander around are black bear, with the biggest normally under 400lbs.

They wander around my house and land.
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Old June 13, 2013, 07:52 AM   #41
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As you'll see from my earlier post, the 240gr is no slouch from the 4.2" barrel.
These pistol vs. bear threads seem to go on indefinitely.
I wonder how many people have actually shot at a brown/griz bear with a pistol.
The hard cast 240/245 gr. bullet in a .44 mag. is a fiercesome combination.
Anything over 245 gr. is difficult to control and hard on the hands and discourages practice. Without practice, you might as well just point your finger and say "bang".
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Old June 13, 2013, 09:58 AM   #42
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Pond,

This is funny! I have a similar thread going. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=526796

The load I have listed isn't a cast bullet, and I use W296 (H110) and mag primers, but I think you can modify it to use the gas checked lead and V110.

This load works real well. I have never had to shoot a grizz with it, but it will shoot through a 12" pine!
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Old June 13, 2013, 03:39 PM   #43
Pond, James Pond
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These pistol vs. bear threads seem to go on indefinitely.
They do indeed, and sometimes I feel I am no closer to knowing which way to go.

The bullets I am looking at are expensive. I mean like "just under 90 USD for 100" expensive.

I can get a steady supply of reasonable 200gr practice bullets, I have plenty of the FMJFN 240gr bullets. However, I've read time and time again that for a grizzly sized bear (and Eurasian Browns are not far behind) you want a biiig bullet. So I need to now make a choice about what to go for.

Some have said that I should not look below 320gr, others say I can stick to my 1350 fps 240gr load, and then others still have said that anything from 255 to 300 will be plenty.

So, in a nutshell, I am torn, and I'd like to make a choice and order: I am flipping coins like a mad man (OK, tails....best of 473?) to choose either 275gr cast or 300gr cast...
I've opted for those two, largely because of the comments from WESHOOT2 and Mike/Tx who raised the point of going large but not too large, but it is still hard to choose.

Hence the endless thread!!
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Old June 13, 2013, 07:09 PM   #44
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fair question

I have no personal experience shooting any bear.

I have a bit of experience manufacturing ammo for folks who may want to, or have to, shoot any bear found in our lower 48.

IME there is a difference in ammo requirements when changing from hunting bear vs defending against bear.

I still suggest a 255--300g WFN at minimum 980fps for defending against the bear desrcibed in this thread.
Bigger?
300--320g.
Smaller?
240g--and up.

Regardless, controllable accuracy must be part of the load's goal.
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Old June 14, 2013, 03:00 AM   #45
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I flipped one final coin:
Just ordered the 275gr Cast Performance WFN bullets.

Thought about getting both lots, but that would be a bit indulgent. If I want to know recoil, I'll go to my local range and borrow their .454!
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Old June 14, 2013, 06:04 AM   #46
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Good flip
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Old June 14, 2013, 10:25 AM   #47
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Hardcast bullets are hole drillers. Drill in the right spot and the critter shuts off. Wrong spot and the critter doesn't know it has been hit. There's no magic - 1/2" hole for a long ways. Depth of the hole is influenced most by the weight of the bullet.

If you want to stop an attack, you should consider the Hornady 240gr XTP. 300lb black bears stop, bite the wound, roll around, bawl and die. This bullet has been tested extensively on black bears being culled on timberland and is much more effective than heavy-for-caliber hardcast.
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