The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 10, 2013, 01:11 PM   #1
1911Alaska
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2012
Posts: 139
Natural aim to the left?

Hey guys,
Not sure what the proper name for this should be but I am sitting here practicing dry firing my Glock and trying to obtain my target naturally, like pulling my pistol from holster then pointing at target before looking down sights. Every time I do this though my aim is always left, I point at the target the acquire the proper sights and I am always to the left. Tried it with my wifes pistol to which is an XD and I do the same thing.
Is this normal?
Any one know how to properly fix it?
1911Alaska is offline  
Old June 10, 2013, 01:16 PM   #2
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,409
Simple fix, adjust your trigger finger like you would your sights.

If as indicated, you are shooting left, slide the trigger finger out of the trigger guard to the right.

You can really see this if with a laser sight on the pistol. Dry fire using the laser, move your finger back and forth and see what happens when the hammer falls.

You'll see by the way the dot moves right and left as you slide your finger left and right.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old June 10, 2013, 01:21 PM   #3
1911Alaska
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2012
Posts: 139
No no sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I was practicing dry firing when I realized I am doing this. When I am pulling from holster and acquiring my target my finger isn't on the trigger, its on the slide.

I am just pulling my gun and trying to acquire the target in the sights naturally without having to actually align the sights. But after I draw and attempt to aquire the target, Ill look down the sights to see if I got it right and I am always to the left, like the gun is angled to the lift kinda in my hand.

If this makes sense?
1911Alaska is offline  
Old June 10, 2013, 01:24 PM   #4
1911Alaska
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2012
Posts: 139
Like this is what my sights look like normally when I actually line them up.


|
| |

See how its lined up perfectly when I actually aim down sights?

This is what it looks like when I just pull and aim without sights,


|
||
As you see the front is always to the left?
Sorry bout the terrrible example just trying to help everyone understand lol

EDIT: Nvm site wont let me use my drawing as I tried to draw my sights, hope it makes sense though. Top is meant to be lined up perfectly and bottom is meant to have the front sight to the left, kind of like how it is as your seeing it now
1911Alaska is offline  
Old June 10, 2013, 01:33 PM   #5
Jim243
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2009
Location: Just off Route 66
Posts: 4,436
My understanding of that problem is that you are not gripping the pistol correctly. Most people have the gun centered in their hand and pointing down range with a straight arm and grip. The pistol should be straight down range from your body not your arm. If you pull the gun straight from your side and point down range you will note that you can not see your sights since the gun is off to your right (if you are right handed). When you bring the pistol up to acquire the front sight the pistol is pointed a little left in stead on straight from your body. You need to bend your wrist a little to the right to straighten out the pistol to be pointing perpendicular from your body.

To correct for this I use a set of Houge grips with the finger groves to orient my hand into the correct position to have the gun pointing 90 degrees from my body when the sights come into view.

It takes practice, practice, practice and more practice until it becomes second nature when you draw that pistol.

Jim
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Jim243 is offline  
Old June 10, 2013, 02:11 PM   #6
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Consider doing the movements in REVERSE. That is, get your sights on target, where you want them, THEN figure out how to smoothly reholster. As you feel it getting more intuitive - Start on target again, move TOWARD holster, then move BACK to on target.

It's the feel of where the gun is once it's on target that counts. That's the muscle memory to try and build. The movements to get there are just the taxi.

At least for me.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old June 10, 2013, 02:38 PM   #7
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,040
Try it from the low ready, instead of from the holster.
You may be sweeping the gun into position in an arc, instead of straight up.
Also make sure the web of your gun hand, between trigger finger and thumb, is in line with the grip of the gun and with your forearm bone and wrist.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.

Last edited by g.willikers; June 10, 2013 at 02:43 PM.
g.willikers is online now  
Old June 10, 2013, 03:14 PM   #8
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,974
Yep, sounds like a grip issue. You just about have to be taking a grip that points the pistol left, rotated that direction in your hand. I wish I had thought of SgtLumpy's solution - it sounds simple and effective.
TailGator is online now  
Old June 11, 2013, 07:30 AM   #9
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,070
if you have a gun with adjustable backstraps try a different size.
When I was acclimating myself to my PPQ I found that the grip that felt the most "perfect" comfort was was not the grip that was the most naturally pointing.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 03:27 PM   #10
c.j.
Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2011
Posts: 18
Quote:
if you have a gun with adjustable backstraps try a different size.
When I was acclimating myself to my PPQ I found that the grip that felt the most "perfect" comfort was was not the grip that was the most naturally pointing.
This. With an M&P, I went through all the backstraps to see which pointer more naturally. You can try to adapt to the machine, or adapt the machine to you...I could argue benefits to both approaches, but since moving to M&Ps, it's worked great for me.
c.j. is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 05:42 PM   #11
colbad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2012
Posts: 308
Easy fix. Concentrate on your front sight.
colbad is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 06:09 PM   #12
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911Alaska
Not sure what the proper name for this should be but I am sitting here practicing dry firing my Glock and trying to obtain my target naturally, like pulling my pistol from holster then pointing at target before looking down sights. Every time I do this though my aim is always left, I point at the target the acquire the proper sights and I am always to the left...
You need to find your natural point of aim.
  1. With your gun unloaded (triple check and make sure there is no ammunition in the area), take your shooting stance and bring the gun up to eye level.

  2. Align the sights with a "target" point you have chosen. Close your eyes and lower the gun to a low ready.

  3. Raise the gun with your eyes still closed. Settle into a comfortable position in which you are aware of only minimal muscle tension.

  4. Open your eyes, and if the gun is not "on target" move your feet [only] until the gun is on target.

  5. Repeat until you are consistently "on target" after bringing the gun up.

  6. Now you will need to add your presentation from the holster. Do it slowly, by the numbers, programing in a smooth presentation combined with winding up on target. You will need to do this slowly and smoothly, concentrating on achieving the correct sight picture every time. It will become reflexive.

  7. It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.

    1. In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:

      1. unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;

      2. conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;

      3. conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and

      4. unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.

    2. To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.

    3. I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.

    4. To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.

  8. With diligent practice you'll be able to make use of the flash sight picture. Here's how Greg Morrison describes the flash sight picture (Morrison, Gregory, The Modern Technique of the Pistol, Gunsite Press, 1991, pp 87 - 88, emphasis added):
    Quote:
    ...The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight-picture sufficient to confirm alignment....The target shooter’s gaze at the front sight has proven inappropriate for the bulk of pistolfighting. However, the practical shooter must start at this level and work up to the flash, which becomes reflexive as motor skills are refined. With practice, a consistent firing platform and firing stroke align the sights effortlessly. This index to the target eventually becomes an instantaneous confirmation of the sight-picture.

    ...Using the flash sight-picture programs the reflex of aligning the weapon’s sights with the target instantly....There is good reason for sights: one needs them to align the barrel with the target reliably....
  9. This video shows another way to find your natural point of aim.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 08:57 PM   #13
big al hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2011
Location: Washington state
Posts: 932
Quote:
my finger isn't on the trigger, its on the slide
If your right handed this is your problem. Your trigger finger is not where it will be when firing. It is pushing the barrel left!

Try it again with your finger on the trigger. Make sure it is not loaded first.
__________________
You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!
big al hunter is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 09:03 PM   #14
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by big al hunter
Quote:
my finger isn't on the trigger, its on the slide
If your right handed this is your problem. Your trigger finger is not where it will be when firing. It is pushing the barrel left!

Try it again with your finger on the trigger. Make sure it is not loaded first.
Sorry, but I have to disagree.

The trigger finger indexed along the frame should not be exerting any pressure. Also, when I present, with my trigger finger indexed along the frame, the sights are aligned on target and remain so when I move my trigger finger to the trigger.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 09:19 PM   #15
SVTCobra306
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2013
Posts: 346
I would agree with Frank Ettin's post.. check your feet you may be standing farther sideways than you think, and it will shift your natural point of aim. Also try with both eyes open or try changing eyes, have you done a lot of shooting in your life? Have you ever done the two-hand triangle test for eye dominance? Many people who are left eye dominant don't know that they are, and it has an effect on your point of aim. Also have someone look at your stance and see what you are doing with your head, you might be tilting it and not meaning to, blocking your view of your front sight.


Once you establish what you are doing to pull your sights or head out of alignment, I agree with the steps posted above. You have to establish muscle memory. In the military we called it Crawl/Walk/Run.. You are at the crawl phase, you do something slowly and repeatedly (dry firing) until you can do it by muscle memory.. then you "walk" by adding an element, such as ammo at a range and concentrate on smoothness and accuracy, then when you can go through the motion while thinking about it, you start picking up speed until you do all of it fast, smooth, and without thinking about it (running).

Last edited by SVTCobra306; June 11, 2013 at 09:25 PM.
SVTCobra306 is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 09:26 PM   #16
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTCobra306
...Also try with both eyes open or try changing eyes, have you done a lot of shooting in your life? Have you ever done the two-hand triangle test for eye dominance? Many people who are left eye dominant don't know that they are, and it has an effect on your point of aim.
An excellent point. One really needs to know which is his dominant eye. Someone who is cross dominant will need to make appropriate adjustments.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 09:33 PM   #17
big al hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2011
Location: Washington state
Posts: 932
Quote:
The trigger finger indexed along the frame should not be exerting any pressure. Also, when I present, with my trigger finger indexed along the frame, the sights are aligned on target and remain so when I move my trigger finger to thetrigger.
When I index I don't apply pressure either, but I'm not the op and I can't see whether pressure is applied or not. The only way to know is to try it differently. If the op is applying pressure it will quickly be evident. Most often it is the simple things that cause problems.

If that is not the issue, I would also suspect eye dominance or a need for grip/stance adjustments.
__________________
You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!
big al hunter is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 09:24 AM   #18
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,040
A quick word about the natural point of aim.
Finding it while standing square to the target is different than finding it when shooting from other positions.
Like at a target far to the right or left, or around and under stuff, kneeling, prone, 'etc.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is online now  
Old June 12, 2013, 09:41 AM   #19
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.willikers
A quick word about the natural point of aim.
Finding it while standing square to the target is different than finding it when shooting from other positions.
Like at a target far to the right or left, or around and under stuff, kneeling, prone, 'etc.
True. But in my experience at least it seems that once it gets well dialed in, it becomes quick and reflexive to acquire a proper sight picture in all manner of positions. It seems to all be part of building in the proper programing by continued, and good repetitions of the task.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old June 12, 2013, 09:54 AM   #20
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,040
If point shooting hasn't been mentioned, it should also be included in a practice routine for developing a NPOI.
An important part of developing a dependable point of aim, is to reduce the sights to less importance.
They become more of a reference than a dependence.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is online now  
Old June 12, 2013, 04:27 PM   #21
theblakester
Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2011
Posts: 58
Natural aim to the left?

There are several posts on here with good info (I stopped reading them halfway through). I'm no expert, but I would suggest researching, learning and memorizing the fundamental techniques of pistol shooting. Then practice at like 10% speed consciously fine tuning each step/technique. Once you get your sight picture and sight alignment straight, slowly start increasing your draw speed. If u notice that you are starting to veer off to the left again, slow back down and remember to focus on each step until u can build up some speed effectively.
Good luck !
theblakester is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12015 seconds with 9 queries