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Old May 21, 2013, 05:31 AM   #26
hooligan1
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What pray tell is OCW? No the question is who's Dan Newberry?
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Old May 21, 2013, 08:22 AM   #27
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OCW is Optimal Charge Weight.

It's a method of finding the optimum powder charge weight for a given set of components to make a rifle shoot most accurate.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
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Old May 21, 2013, 11:31 AM   #28
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Optimum Charge Weight. Dan Newberry's concept. Read about it here.
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Old May 21, 2013, 01:45 PM   #29
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Excellent web site, just read for an hour flat....really interesting thanks
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Old May 21, 2013, 10:42 PM   #30
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Curious that I didn't see Bart had covered it when I posted. It must have been on the other page. Note that Dan Newberry is a member here and may comment on topics related to his system.
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Old May 22, 2013, 11:33 AM   #31
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Can anybody get my link or Unclenick's link to OCW to work?

All I get from both is a solid dark chocolate colored window. Maybe it's really Oniel's Chocolate Works' web site that is not up and running as it's "work in progress." I'm not gonna lick my screen to verify it.
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Old May 22, 2013, 11:36 AM   #32
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Working fine for me, Bart.
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Old May 22, 2013, 01:38 PM   #33
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Yep me to
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Old May 23, 2013, 02:39 PM   #34
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Bart if you have a very slow connection it may take a while to load. If it is loading then the screen is that choco brown color.

Oh and I just do the OCW work up with standard mag length. The pain to pay off was not there for me, and the way I shoot most of the time.
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Old May 23, 2013, 03:22 PM   #35
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I tried both posted links intermixed with other links in other threads in this forum to other places. All showed up in less than 1/10th second from key press except these two. I think the path through the last server to the OCW website is mired down in molasses and that server thinks it's January 'cause it's calendar page hasn't been flipped for several months. This is confirmed by the color of the blank screen being the same as molasses; I mistakenly thought it was chocolate.

And again today at this time; won't open.
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Old May 23, 2013, 03:40 PM   #36
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Clear your browser cache
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Old May 23, 2013, 06:07 PM   #37
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Brian, clearing my browser cache was the first thing I did. Thanks, anyway.
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Old May 23, 2013, 06:47 PM   #38
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Ah. Likely to be a FlashPlayer issue then. Perhaps unistall/reinstall.
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Old May 23, 2013, 07:05 PM   #39
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Happily, my internet got me to Dan Newberry's site very quickly, and I read it with great interest. One thing he says is that when working up loads it often doesn't matter how far off the lands you are till you find your sweet spot loads. And, he said that he likes to load the bullet at least one caliber deep into the brass. Hmmmm. I just happened to be struggling with some 40 gr Sierra Varminter bullets in my 223, and I loaded them out close to the lands and shot many groups and had little luck finding a great load (BL-C(2) powder is what I was using, since I'm low on H335). So...I decided to load them about a caliber deep and loaded up 5 of the load that had been most promising so far. Shot pretty darn well, even though they were far off the lands. So I tinkered with the OAL for a while and burned a good bit more powder and did indeed find a good shooting OAL, which is still a good ways from the lands.

I had been using the Redding FL bushing die for resizing and was setting the brass shoulder back slightly, as suggested on the forum. The rounds were grouping pretty good, but not as good as I had hoped. The reason for the use of that die was specifically to push the shoulder back just the right amount. Otherwise I'd have used the Lee Collet Die. So...I thought that maybe I should give the Lee Die a try on these loads, since it had worked great for me in the past. So I did. Groups tightened up noticeably. I'm gonna quit using that darn Redding bushing die and stay with the Lee Collet Die until shoulders need bumping.

And, after sending many 40 gr Sierra Varminters downrange in the last 3 days, I do believe that the bullet just isn't going to shoot as well as the 40 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip does. No surprise there. But being maybe 1/2 further away from where I'd hit with the Nosler will still turn a coyote inside out.
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Old May 25, 2013, 11:00 AM   #40
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603Country,

Interesting report.

On the Redding die, did you take the expander out and substitute bushings until you had one that just gave you the right neck tension without the expander getting involved? Expanders are what pull necks off-axis. Also, you can use the Redding die without a bushing to bump the shoulders back on cases you've put through the Lee Collet Die, if you'd like to do a more apples-to-apples comparison of the methods.

On seating depth, it's an oddball thing. Many guns have a couple of seating depth sweet spots, with one often being back near 1 caliber into the neck, assuming your neck is one caliber long. Many, like .308 and .223, not to mention the various short magnums, do not. In those instances, seating the bearing surface portion of the bullet (in other words, don't count the boat tail) one neck length into the case should get you all you can expect by way of neck grip on the bullet.

Dan Hackett, in the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, mentions having a .220 Swift varmint rifle he could only get to group five shots into 3/8" (this is a benchrest guy, so that's a disappointing group to him). He says that one day, when switching bullets, he turned the micrometer adjustment on his seating the die wrong way, and wound up seating 20 rounds with 50 grain Nosler bullets (IIRC) 0.050" in off the lands instead of 0.020" in as he'd been using and believed was best. Rather than disassemble the loads, he decided just to fire them in practice. The result was two 1/4 in groups and two bugholes in the ones.

So it's just one of those things you have to try. As the above example illustrates, the effect may only be small in some guns, making it hard to discern. If you take 0.2 in as Hackett's average result after correcting the seating depth, assuming circular groups, it reduces his group area from 0.11 in², to 0.0314 in², a reduction of 0.079 in². Since group error influences add as their circular areas do, that means that if his gun had started with half inch groups, he would only see a reduction from 0.5 in to 0.39 in, which is harder to spot. If his gun had started with 1 in groups, the reduction would only be from 1 in to 0.948 in, and that's pretty impossible to tell from random chance until you average a large number of groups.
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Last edited by Unclenick; May 27, 2013 at 08:39 AM. Reason: typo fix
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Old May 25, 2013, 04:51 PM   #41
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I've observed the multiple sweet spot chracteristic as well. I only load for one cartridge where the distance to the lands is critical but I load for more than one rifle using this cartridge and they're all hunting rifles. I simply determined the shorter "sweet spot" for my primary rifle and found that it worked quite well in my backup rifle as well as both of my brother's rifles. Interesting thing is that it's very close to Hornady's published COAL for this bullet. All four rifles approach MOA with 5 shots but 1.25 is the norm, these are hunting rifles and hunting ammo and I'm not a comp rifle shooter.
My theory is that a rifle's preferred distance off the lands is just part of it's personality. I've had rifles that preferred to have the bullet slightly engage the rifling, both were exceptionally (for me) accurate.
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Old May 25, 2013, 05:38 PM   #42
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Unclenick, I was using the Redding FL Bushing die without the expander button. As for whether or not I was using the absolute best sized bushing, I can't really say. I was, in yesterday's shooting, using the largest bushing I had. The bullets were seating with a bit more resistance than when seating bullets into cases that had been sized with the Lee Collet Die. The cases were once-fired Lapua match 223. The group size difference isn't really that big, and I didn't go to the trouble of measuring the groups, which were in the range of 3/4 inch, but the loads from cases sized by the collet die were noticeably smaller, with fewer flyers. I hate to use the word 'flyers' since that gets Bart B going, but what else am I gonna call em?

When I was finished with the 40 gr Sierra Varminters, I wanted to check my POI before I put the gun away. I took a few rounds of the 40 gr Nosler BT's in Lapua not-yet-once-fired cases and shot them into about 1/2 to 3/8 inch precisely on my desired point of impact.

I almost forgot to mention that my rifle, a Ruger Hawkeye with a 1 in 9 twist will let me seat bullets out pretty far. I assume that's because that rifle with that twist needs to be able to feed and shoot long, high BC bullets in the 70 grain range. A tiny little 40 grainer, like the Sierra, with no plastic tip and the BC of a pebble just can't easily be seated far enough out to get that close to the lands unless the bullet is seated way less than one caliber deep. The Nosler 40 gr BT is longer and I can get that bullet closer to the lands. For the record, if memory is correct, I can seat to 2.31 and touch the lands. The Nosler likes to be at 2. 217 and the Sierra at 2.20 (I think, but my brain is just full of numbers by now). That's not exactly short, but it is a ways from the lands.

Last edited by 603Country; May 25, 2013 at 05:45 PM.
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Old May 25, 2013, 09:51 PM   #43
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Seat bullets on are where ever you get best accuracy.
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Old May 27, 2013, 08:51 AM   #44
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603Country,

Are you able to check neck and bullet runout? Per my post #18, some guns care more than others about runout. If you can measure it and mark the high side, then orient the cartridges in your chamber so the high side is always at the same position, if this is a factor in your rifle that will reduce the group size. What made me think about it is that one variable can be how well your seater die happens to like the ogive shape of your bullet.


Bart B.,

Did you also clear your browser history as well as your cache? I've found I've had to do both to stop unintended redirects.
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Last edited by Unclenick; June 2, 2013 at 10:19 AM. Reason: typo fix
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Old May 27, 2013, 12:00 PM   #45
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Unclenick, one thing that I want but have not bought yet is a device to measure neck and bullet runout. It was on my mental list of stuff I needed, but I apparently recently misplaced my mental list. But now the list just came back, thanks to you. I will request some advice on what rig to buy. There are several different rigs for the runout measurement, and I'd like to buy right the first time. Would you please recommend one or two and why you prefer them? Thanks.
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Old June 2, 2013, 11:28 AM   #46
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Two popular ones that come to mind are the NECO gauge and the Sinclair gauge. The NECO costs more, but measures a larger number of things. Both may be viewed here.

I own and like the NECO gauge and have used the extra features at times. I've also own the Forster gauge and it is easier. However, it supports the bullet by the nose, so total tip runout is bigger than is measured by the total cartridge length divided by the distance from the cartridge case head to the measuring point. It is good for a quick check of total runout, but does no allow independent determination of neck runout of the case and bullet runout in the neck. Same would be true for the Hornady gauge which works similarly, but adds and adjusting feature. I've never used the RCBS Casemaster myself, so I can't say how its ease of use compares.

Probably the ideal thing is to use a tool to find and eliminate the causes of bent necks first, then do the same with bullet seating error. This way the gauge is used mainly to verify straight rounds for a match or important test, and not to make adjustments to every individual round.
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