The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > NFA Guns and Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 7, 2013, 10:14 AM   #26
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,979
I ran a few hundred of the hot Spanish 9x19 SMG stuff through my Ruger P85 (this would be about twenty to twenty five years ago). The recoil wasn't particularly noticeable to me, but I got an awful lot of failures to eject and failures to feed. These cartridges were an extremely tight fit in the Ruger chamber, and did not go in nor come out easily once the barrel got a bit warm. Since I wasn't a terribly "serious" shooter at the time, I didn't really think a lot about it other than resolve not to buy that particular ammo again, so I never took the time to figure out where exactly it was binding in the chamber or why it didn't like to feed when the barrel was warm (and the chamber empty). I didn't know or care to look for signs of excess pressure, so never inspected the spent casings.
csmsss is offline  
Old May 15, 2013, 11:07 AM   #27
RichUrich
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2008
Location: Fayetteville AR
Posts: 1
Israeli Ammo from back when...

Back in the 1970's-80's a large quantity of "cleaned" Israeli surplus 9mm ammo came in the U.S. that was marked "sold for components only!" and us purchasers had to sign a document that stated that we would not fire it in anything and that we would pull the tips for reloading.
This ammo was surplused because it was stored in crates, left outside in Israel in the hot sun! (Heat is B-A-D for storage of ammo!)
The cases had been "cleaned" I think by either tumbling (also dangerous as it changes the physical structure of the powder!) or acid-cleaning and it removed any coloring on the bullet tips so that when "someone" fired this ammo through an UZI one never knew if there were tracers in the 1000-rd loose packed cartons!
And yes, I have seen what happened when someone would fire this ammo ina pistol!
RichUrich is offline  
Old May 15, 2013, 08:54 PM   #28
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,122
So what happened? And why would tracers make a difference except possibly causing rust in the barrel from the tracer residue? I have fired a fair amount of tracer in various calibers and it is usually less impressive than ball due to the lighter bullet.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old May 15, 2013, 09:00 PM   #29
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: PA -- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 7,771
Quote:
and it is usually less impressive than ball due to the lighter bullet.
I always thought it was quite impressive when you started seeing them going in different directions than where they were originally sent, once they got there.

Pretty scary when you can see it. Even scarier when you realize, in some cases, there are four more rounds in between each tracer, that you cant see.

Wheres my vest?
__________________
“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

Zeitgeist - The Movie
AK103K is offline  
Old May 15, 2013, 10:24 PM   #30
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,185
I recall reading some posts by a member from Norway. He indicated that the only 9mm ammunition he could find was the L7A1 and that while it was apparently safe to fire in the Glock 19, it was known to shorten the service life noticeably.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 16, 2013, 07:58 AM   #31
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 2,397
In my limited experience, "SMG only" does increase the ROF in open bolt guns like the Uzi. The added pressure makes sure the bolt will travel far enough to engage the sear when the shooter lets off the trigger. As mentioned by James K, weaker ammo can cause run-away guns, especially if they are dirty.
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old May 16, 2013, 10:52 AM   #32
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,402
Quote:
And why would tracers make a difference except possibly causing rust in the barrel from the tracer residue?
Many ranges and jurisdictions out west do not allow tracer ammunition to be used, not because it is bad for guns or scary to politicos, small children, and old women, but because it can and does start fires. Much of the west is covered by grasslands and brush and gets very dry for much of the year. When it ignites, the flames spread as if the grass were covered in gasoline. I have seen 400 acres go up in flames in about 10 minutes.
Quote:
I always thought it was quite impressive when you started seeing them going in different directions than where they were originally sent, once they got there.
Yup! Even scarier when you see it coming towards you. But that's a different story.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old May 16, 2013, 12:19 PM   #33
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,122
Correct on the tracer, Scorch, and my apology for not mentioning the fire hazard. I didn't do so because in the context of the thread, the concern was damage to guns.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old May 28, 2013, 04:52 PM   #34
Mk VII
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2000
Location: England
Posts: 336
British Mk.2z was primarily intended for Sten guns and the Sterlings which came along later to replace them. This stuff did get used in Browning HPs as well, but a steady diet of it will start to take them apart, or at any rate make them very tired and loose. As most of the Brownings in units stayed in the safe and seldom got shot at all, it wasn't seen to matter much. Don't use this stuff in guns you value.
When I started doing the annual Whitehead course pistol matches in July each year you got issued 24 rnds (later 40 as the course changed) by the Army on the line, and what it would be this year was a fruitful source of speculation. Nasty French stuff one year which was corrosive and would rust a barrel overnight. Stamped 'pistol only' on the boxes IIRC. Gevelot stuff after that which seemed much cleaner (but we still boiled it out in case). FFV stuff purchased from Sweden (MoD Procurement executive had taken bribes to push the contract their way - convicted later). Hirtenberger stuff from Austria after that (Boxer primed - first time this had happened, although the flash holes were small and would suck the pin out of your dies, but easily drilled out to the right dia.) Currently IMI stuff from Israel. In no instance was Mk.2z issued.
Mk VII is offline  
Old July 23, 2013, 01:54 PM   #35
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,010
Quote:
Another possibility here is, some of the ammo released as "surplus" was actually nothing of the sort, and was refused as unacceptable, and ended up in the civilian market, and simply marked for SMG's as a liability disclaimer, so people wouldnt shoot it in pistols.

We got a bad batch of 7.62x51 (if I remember right, it was CBC head stamped) back in the 80's out of SGN, that was recalled soon after, due to guns shooting it blowing up. It was sold as "surplus", but Im not aware of any 7.62x51 being loaded "hot" for issue use, so we always assumed it was a bad lot that was refused and got into the system.
This is what I believe. Recently I found that ammunition has a shelf life. Powder does not deteriorate to a benign condition, instead , at the end of its lifetime, it has burn rate instability issues and pressures climb. Old ammunition has and will continue to blow up firearms.

People have not been educated on this, in fact they have been told the exact reverse, that old ammunition fails safe. It does not.

Surplus ammunition is out on the market because the ammunition technicians responsible for stockpile surveillance determined the stuff was unsafe for their troops to shoot, and unsafe to store. A nasty, which few are aware, is the propensity for old gunpowder to auto combust.

As to whether there is SMG only ammunition, as others have stated, if extra hot SMG only ammunition got into a service pistol that would result in a damaged pistol. It would be difficult to keep the hot stuff out of the hands of troopers who would probably load it in their pistols precisely because they want “hot ammunition” under the premise that hot ammunition would cause more damage to the enemy. The end result would be worn out and blown pistols. I am therefore skeptical, though it could be, a could be, that there was special ammunition made only for SMG’s. You can look at US military 45ACP specs, there is no SMG only specification. The same 230 FMJ with 5.0 grains Bullseye functioned both the M1911 and the Thompson.

I suspect what was sold as “hot SMG” only ammunition was ammunition that was way past a reasonable shelf life and was overpressure due to age. Because people are unaware of the problems with old ammunition, in fact, those sitting on piles of old ammunition deign it if told so, folks accepted the sales pitch.

Buyer beware!
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old August 5, 2013, 02:27 PM   #36
Husqvarna
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 528
my club has got a buttload of old smg ammo for use in the club pistols, all glocks and the oldtimers won't sell it to other people with other guns, they say that it is the reason why Sweden chose the glock as the service pistol. our m/39 was phased out (not replaced by pistols but buy short carbines in 556) but we still had tons of ammo left. IIRC we couldn't sell it as surplus abroad because it was a "copkiller" round.

it is steel jacketed?
Husqvarna is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09419 seconds with 9 queries