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Old August 1, 2012, 01:55 PM   #1
aarondhgraham
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Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
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Please help me evaluate this legal service,,,

http://ccwsafe.com

I was looking at the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network,,,
But this other service looks a bit more comprehensive.

On the FAQ page,,,
Question 4 has a very attractive answer.

Quote:
CCW Safe is not an insurance product. Most, if not all programs that are currently available, work on the insurance model. For an annual fee, usually $120 to $250, you are are covered by a policy that is usually capped, or limited to a specific amount. Some will not cover criminal matters, some will, but will not cover a trial. To use these services, you must first spend your own money, or obtain a loan to pay for your defense, then submit claims for reimbursement. Some policies only allow claims if you are found not guilty. With CCW Safe, you will never have to spend your own money or obtain a loan to pay for your defense. CCW Safe is a service product. therefore, we will provide the services associated with a lawsuit or trial. Attorneys fees, investigator fees, expert witness fees, they are all covered by CCW Safe.
Anyways, I'm 95% ready to sign up for this service,,,
I would appreciate any opinions you good folk might have,,,
I would especially appreciate any comments from our lawyer members.

Thanks in advance,,,

Aarond

.
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Old August 1, 2012, 02:10 PM   #2
Spats McGee
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This is the first time I've seen ccwsafe. I'll add it to my list of "coverage entities" to look into. That said, I can't really answer your questions. What I can do is tell you that you need to be asking if they cover:
1) Costs and expenses (attorneys' fees, depositions, court reporters, photocopying, etc.); as well as
2) Damages if they lose (in a civil trial).

If they don't cover #2, that's OK, but be sure you get that question answered up front. While FAQ #4 says "you will never have to spend your own money or obtain a loan to pay for your defense," that may only include costs and expenses. What if they pay for $25K in defense costs at a civil trial, but lose to the tune of $90K? Who's going to pay that? Again, if they aren't gonig to cover the $90K, you need to know that on the front end. Natcherly, this would apply to any of the coverage entities you were considering.
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Last edited by Spats McGee; August 1, 2012 at 02:23 PM.
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Old August 1, 2012, 02:10 PM   #3
MLeake
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aarond, I have to wonder if this is too good to be true.

As I understand the ACLDN model, annual fees are pooled, and the funds available determine the amount of services that can be provided. The more members, the more potential defense funds, but yes it's an insurance model.

CCWSafe doesn't explain their business model. However, if they've only been in business since 2011, how can they actually follow through on their claimed services unless they have either:

1) a major pool of investors; and/or
2) significant start-up capital; and/or
3) an amazing number of existing memberships?

I'm not saying they don't have one, two, or three of those things, but you might ask for a prospectus, etc.

OTOH, ACLDN is run by Marty Hayes, and (assuming initial investigation indicates a clean gun use), Marty and Mas Ayoob are in your stable of defense expert witnesses.

I joined ACLDN last August. I've met Marty and Mas, and prefer to gamble on people I know - if only casually.

Your call.

Regards,

M
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Old August 1, 2012, 02:19 PM   #4
Spats McGee
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I forgot to mention it in my earlier post, but MLeake pointed out something that did catch my eye: the 2011 start-up date.

Also, I've been looking around for OK's attorney disciplinary records, with no luck. I did, however, run across the Sweet Law Firm's web page. Kyle Sweet is listed as their lead counsel. I would take a moment to read his page: http://www.sweetlawfirm.com/index.ph...ney/kyle_sweet
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Old August 1, 2012, 02:21 PM   #5
Tom Servo
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Good point on the solvency issues. I don't see how they could have gathered enough through premiums to guarantee payment in the near future.
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Old August 1, 2012, 02:32 PM   #6
aarondhgraham
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I would consider buying both packages,,,

One is $85.00 and the other is $99.00,,,
$184.00 is cheaper than any gun I've bought.

Going on the American theory that more is always better,,,
I could see myself signing up for both services.

I'm still undecided though,,,
Thanks for all your input so far.

I was aware that this is a relatively new service,,,
I heard about it from a friend who bought a dual membership.

Perhaps I should wait until he shoots someone,,,
And see how it works for him.

(Just Kidding)

Aarond

.
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Old August 1, 2012, 09:26 PM   #7
Al Norris
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From the Membership sign-up section:

Quote:
Terms of Agreement-

By remitting membership payment, buyer is purchasing the rights to services for representation of one person (single or military/LE), two family members (dual), in any legal matter stemming from a use of force incident pursuant to a duly licensed in good standing concealed carry weapon permit for one year from the date of this acknowledgement. Representation to include securing of legal services and investigative services from CCW Safe attorneys and network law firms who are of the highest peer rating and members of Defense Research Institute. Note: You must have a valid state Concealed Weapon Permit issued to be eligible for any representation from CCW Safe. This is not an insurance product. It is a services agreement. Therefore, any money judgements rendered against a member is the responsibility of the member. CCW Safe will obtain and pay all legal services affiliated with a use of force incident.
There you go. Note the highlighted section.
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Old August 1, 2012, 10:17 PM   #8
Daggitt
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You would be better off to set aside $200 a year in your bank account or buy more insurance.These people started this last year. Don't be another internet tragedy.
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Old August 1, 2012, 10:48 PM   #9
Marty Hayes
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Besides, Marty Hayes is a TFL member. That should account for something...
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Old August 1, 2012, 11:03 PM   #10
Brian Pfleuger
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I hate to sound like a lawyer

But doesn't this:

WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER A USE OF FORCE INCIDENT?
Any time your firearm that you are licensed to carry pursuant to a concealed weapon permit is used in any way, not necessarily discharged, this is a use of force incident.


Almost sound like open carry and incidents in places not requiring permits are not covered?
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Old August 2, 2012, 02:02 PM   #11
Frank Ettin
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A few things:

[1] It's not insurance; it's styled as a service plan. One thing that means is that it is essentially unregulated (except to the extent that the practice of law by the lawyers is regulated by the Bar Association(s) the lawyer belongs to). One of the most important aspects of insurance regulation is company solvency. Departments of Insurance monitor the financial status of insurance companies (quarterly financial statement and triennial audits). That increases the likelihood that the carrier will have the money to pay its insurance obligations.

[2] As a service plan, it provides legal services through its panel of lawyer (like an HMO provides medical services through its panel of doctors). That can be an issue if you don't get along with or trust the lawyer on the panel available to you or you need the service in a State in which they don't have a panel lawyer.

[3] On the other hand, Alexis Artwohl is on their panel as a use of force consultant, and she is well known and respected in the field.
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Old August 2, 2012, 02:11 PM   #12
aarondhgraham
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I like service plans,,,

I like service plans,,,
It's really what I am expecting from this package,,,
A lawyer that will get out of bed and come advise me before/during/after questioning.

I really wasn't expecting monetary coverage in case of a civil suit,,,
Are there really insurance policies that provide that type of coverage?

Aarond

.
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
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Old August 2, 2012, 02:18 PM   #13
Frank Ettin
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Some general liability and/or umbrella policies, at least in connection with a civil suit, might cover costs of defense and indemnify for any damages awarded. And I believe that the NRA has made arrangements for some type of insurance coverage to be available to members.

If you have substantial personal assets, you probably want to look into those kinds of insurance.
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Old August 2, 2012, 03:09 PM   #14
aarondhgraham
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I'm poor as a church mouse,,,

I'm poor as a church mouse,,,
Actually not that bad.

But I don't have any substantial assets,,,
I almost own a small lot in a small town,,,
And I do own the mobile home that I live in.

I'm more worried about going to jail,,,
Because I don't have enough money for a lawyer,,,
That's why these two services (or whatever they are) are interesting me.

BTW,,,
I really am appreciating the info in this thread.

Aarond

.
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is online now  
Old August 11, 2012, 04:19 PM   #15
johnwilliamson062
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Posts: 6,824
You are guaranteed a lawyer to begin with, a public defender, it is just very likely they will give you terrible service. Surprising since almost 50% of law school graduates apparently can't get jobs as lawyers.

Will this service provide better protection? I hope so.

What if you are from a state that does not issue permits but you are legally CCWing?

Finance:
Quote:
Kyle has represented hundreds of health care professionals in medical malpractice cases in state and federal courts throughout the United States
This is in addition to his regular work. What percentage of CCW owners, especially those who are responsible enough to purchase legal protection before they need it, get into shootings? I bet this is a great cash cow. He may never even have a single claim.
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Old August 12, 2012, 01:05 PM   #16
hogdogs
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Would this be a better option for us "church mice"...

I seek out a defense attorney with experience in defending "innocent" men who used "justifiable force" in self defense but for what ever reason, were charged anyway. This attorney would have to have an excellent record of winning...

Then ask him what a fair "retainer" would be considering I will likely never need his service but want to be as prepared for the after as I am for the before aspect...

So I am told a number such as $2k and arrange a payment plan such as 100 per month (20 months) or 200 per month (10 months)...

First question... Could I expect him to honor our arrangement should I need him sooner?

Second... is a retainer usually a one time transaction or is there a payment interval to be expected?

Third... Once "on retainer" will he go further into a case before hitting me up for a large amount to continue?

I ask in this thread as I feel I might be nearly bucks ahead and with a better attorney by setting up my own "installment plan"... Since we may never likely need an attorney for a SD event, it is gambling in my eye like homeowners insurance....

At some point, your payments WILL excedd the policy max payout... given enuff time...

Brent
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Old August 23, 2012, 01:58 PM   #17
Caboclo
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ACDN is more than just legal insurance. They have a pool of knowledge, expert witnesses, and other resources than an individual law firm might not have. I personally use both ACDN and an additional insurance policy with a law firm.
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Old August 23, 2012, 02:17 PM   #18
aarondhgraham
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Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
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Thanks for all the replies gentlemen,,,

Thanks for all the replies gentlemen,,,
Good food for thought in almost every post.

I've decided to start with the ACDN package,,,
I'll order the membership this payday at months end.

Next month end I will subscribe to the CCW SAFE service.

Heck my friends,,,
It's less than $200.00 a year for both.

Thanks for your input.

Aarond

.
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is online now  
Old May 15, 2013, 12:39 AM   #19
okc3po
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this might help to evaluate this service...http://www.okshooters.com/showthread...42473-CCW-Safe
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Old May 15, 2013, 08:54 AM   #20
Vanya
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The linked thread is uninformative (the information about CCW SAFE comes from sales pitches), and Aaron made his mind up several months ago. If anyone has first-hand information about how the service works in practice, a new thread would be useful.
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