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Old May 12, 2013, 10:31 AM   #26
sir_n0thing
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Un-freaking-believable. This easily could have ended extremely badly.
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Old May 12, 2013, 12:26 PM   #27
Tom Servo
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Someone needs to go to jail for this stupidity.
Depending on jurisdiction, some variation of disorderly conduct would be the only thing I could think of charging them with. Proving damages on a civil level would also be difficult.

I suppose the best thing is to publicize the names of the theater manager and everyone involved and see that this incident haunts them for a good long time.
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Old May 12, 2013, 01:28 PM   #28
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If any of you folks in Missouri are looking for a management position, there may be one opening up soon.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:12 PM   #29
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Somebody mentioned orange tips. I played airsoft when I was 14 and was very up on the laws. It's illegal to sell an airsoft gun or BB gun under a certain power without an orange tip. Anything above 600 FPS, I believe, is an airgun and treated differently. At least in Florida.
Wish it were here in Ohio.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Umarex-XBG...ndingMethod=rr

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Crosman-P1...ndingMethod=rr

Several of them.

As far as I know there has been no issues other than when the Bad Guys use them in a robbery.

I realize they can paint them or in some cases pull them off so maybe they are less ussfull anyway. Might save a kid that leaves them orange though.

Back to the topic question....

I definitely could see my self drawing my firearm and taking cover if possible.

However, unless i was sure it was real i wouldn't fire as well as I would assume most here wouldn't either.

The question I have is would someone who did fire and someone was hurt, would they likely be in trouble in some states? I am just not familiar with the law in many states and I wonder if both the planners/executors of the fake attack and the person who fired be in big trouble? In some states?

Would be one of those real sticky ones many have referred to.

Might be a good Question for the law section of TFL. Think I will sit on that one. Maybe think on it a little more.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:32 PM   #30
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This ties in neatly with the "Am I Wrong?" thread in Tactics and Training, with regard to making sure one understands the situation.
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Old May 12, 2013, 02:50 PM   #31
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by Wreck-n-Crew
However, unless i was sure it was real i wouldn't fire as well as I would assume most here wouldn't either.
I don't think that's a valid assumption, especially not shortly after both Aurora and Sandy Hook. If I pay money to see a commercial motion picture, that's the "entertainment" I paid for and that I expect to receive. If I see a bunch of people dashing into the theater pointing very realistic-looking guns at me, why would I think it is anything OTHER than "real"?

I'm not saying I absolutely would open fire, but I'd say there's a very real probability I would. If you were being mugged in the parking lot behind a bar, would you wait for the mugger to shoot before you shot, to be sure it was a "real" mugging? I wouldn't. Why would I react any differently in a theater, when confronted by multiple assailants?

Frank Ettin has posted numerous times that the standard for using deadly force in self-defense is the "reasonable man" test: What would a hypothetical "reasonable man" do if confronted with the same situation in which you acted in self-defense? Personally, I think a "reasonable man" confronted with multiple armed adversaries would probably open fire preemptively. I certainly DON'T think a "reasonable man" would sit there and say to himself, "Oh, nothing to worry about, it's probably just part of the show."
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Old May 13, 2013, 08:01 AM   #32
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Whoever participated in this piece of stupidity will eventually end up winning the Darwin Award.
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Old May 13, 2013, 11:40 AM   #33
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Missouri is definitely a gun state with concealed carry laws and they are certainly on the 10A side of trying to keep the Fed out of State business at least as far as the 2A is concerned.

Yea, this was a bad idea that could have gone very wrong.

Think of the timing if local LE had showed up just as a CC guy opens up on one of the Cosplay dudes.
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Old May 13, 2013, 11:41 AM   #34
4V50 Gary
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What Gary Griffiths said. They're lucky someone didn't shoot back. It was a stupid stunt.
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Old May 13, 2013, 12:04 PM   #35
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So if you were sitting there with your LCP - what to do? It's like that surprise attack on the school under discussion elsewhere.
I see someone in a tac type outfit come into a theater, armed with what looks like an AR-15 and he doesn't have "Police" "FBI" "ATF" or "Sheriff" on his gear in big letters I am drawing and firing before you can say "Dog Meat".

Every "SWAT" type guy you see who is a LEO has some sort of clear identification on his gear.

Right or wrong, you hesitate long enough in that situation to figure out if the gun is real or not you probably are going to get shot if the gun is real..

In this case though it sounds like the "Gun" in question was easily identifible as a toy by a red or orange tip.

In regards to understanding a situation, it wouldn't matter if it was on the streets or in a theater. If someone has what looks like a real gun and is using it in a threatening manner towards me they are a legit target. That is called reasonable fear for ones life and safety. An orange or red tip sticks out like a sore thumb at the end of a firearm.

As a kid though I played with plenty of toy guys that looked just like the real thing. being a really dumb kid at one point I even removed the orange tips from sone of my toys.
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Old May 13, 2013, 12:36 PM   #36
MLeake
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Patriot86, let's flip this around and say the threat had been legit, but were otherwise identical...

You are saying you would proactively initiate a shootout with SEVEN armed individuals in a crowded place?

Check the photo with the link. Ten people in costume, of which seven are in tac gear or trench and apparently armed.

Edit: Seems to me a better strategy would be to quietly try to get the family to and through an exit, which could then be used as a chokepoint or funnel, prior to any hostilities commencing.
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Old May 13, 2013, 12:45 PM   #37
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Seems to me a better strategy would be to quietly try to get the family to and through an exit, which could then be used as a chokepoint or funnel, prior to any hostilities commencing.
You're absolutely right.

But, if push comes to shove, and I don't know those are airsoft guns, there's a possibility I'd feel compelled to shoot. Then I'd find out that, rather than breaking up an attempted shooting, I'd just maimed or killed a mall ninja with poor decision-making skills who was pulling a prank.

That would be a hard thing to live with. I wonder if these people understand how close they came to being seriously harmed.
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Old May 13, 2013, 12:46 PM   #38
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Well we did go see Iron Man III Saturday. We were in the back in a special dining theater with 1-3 the seats of normal - aka an excellent view of the rest of the theater. Between us and the other couple were two competition level shooters and former para rescue. Texas is a Shall Issue CHL state.


You figure out what would have happened.

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Old May 13, 2013, 12:49 PM   #39
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Quote:
All they saw was people with guns, and possibly their lives flashing before their eyes.

Something in my mind would have shouted Aurora, and I'd have gone to condition red. Even if I hadn't shot, I'd be very, very unhappy, and I've had taken steps to ensure that everyone involved lost their employment and were subject to some sort of charges.

So, is it true about the surprise ending, that Tony Stark is really the Red Skull's son?
Well I think the article noting one guy's PTSD flaring up. Thats at least one winnable lawsuit-and rightly so. Every person in that theater can make a claim for intentional infliction of emotional distress, and win it. The manager's fired shortly if not already.
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Old May 13, 2013, 12:55 PM   #40
tg461
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Let's have a fake attack on Iron Man 3

Oh this would have been bad. I'm a cop that carries every day especially the theater. GF is an employee of the FBI who CCs.
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Old May 13, 2013, 01:02 PM   #41
Patriot86
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Patriot86, let's flip this around and say the threat had been legit, but were otherwise identical...

You are saying you would proactively initiate a shootout with SEVEN armed individuals in a crowded place?

Check the photo with the link. Ten people in costume, of which seven are in tac gear or trench and apparently armed.

Edit: Seems to me a better strategy would be to quietly try to get the family to and through an exit, which could then be used as a chokepoint or funnel, prior to any hostilities commencing.
If they are active shooters (shooting) then yes.
Better to fight to the end than line up and be killed like a sheep.
If its some sort of terrorist/hostage takeover, no shooting off the bat the ole "sit down and shut up" commands then not much fighting to do, just comply and wait for an opening. 1 VS 7 are sucky odds.

Thinking of a theater with people shooting, odds are all the exits will be covered. Its really a no win situation.
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Old May 13, 2013, 01:40 PM   #42
MLeake
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Yep, but that goes back to (again) assessing the situation and making the best call one can in that particular instance.

Again, tying back into the "Am I Wrong?" thread in T&T, to those who think everything is black and white...
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Old May 13, 2013, 02:07 PM   #43
Tucker 1371
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Are Americans really this dumb?... I'll answer my own question, Yes, yes Tucker they are. Palm meet forehead. Jeez

I'm going to petition Webster or some other relevant authority to change the definition of common sense, because common sense as we know it is dead.
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Old May 13, 2013, 05:08 PM   #44
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Another way to look at this is to ask yourself, "If someone had fired, and I was on their jury, would I consider this to be a justifiable shoot?" I have to answer yes: dark theater, visibly armed intruders, and the events of recent history all add up to a reasonable fear of death or serious injury on the part of the theater audience.

It is truly fortunate that this did not result in a tragedy; it may yet result in lawsuits, PTSD cases, and other completely forseeable complications.

The manager defends his decision. Apparently he is too much of a bone-head to realize he is a bone-head.
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Old May 13, 2013, 05:25 PM   #45
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The manager defends his decision.
At least until corporate gets involved. There's no way a major corporation is going to back him on this.
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