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Old May 9, 2013, 05:32 PM   #51
Deaf Smith
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With a charging bear, I.E. frontal shot, how you gonna hit a shoulder?

The head will be in front of it and not much shoulder will be showing.

You are certainly not going to aim off to one side so you can hit a shoulder.

http://sportsafield.com/content/grizzly-defense

And notice what a bear looks like from in front.

And tell me... are you saying a .458 510 soft point won't break a bears shoulder?

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Old May 9, 2013, 06:36 PM   #52
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Don’t need a S&W 500 or a shotgun, a 44 Mag snubby will do. When the bear is about 7 yards out, put a 240 gr hard cast flat point thru its nose, (the nose is a lot bigger than its eyes) and quickly step to the side. (À la matador) If the shot is slightly off, I do not fret, for the bear is nonetheless temporarily stunned by the blast, the fireball, and the bullet, so it’s a simple matter of emptying the gun (and busting up) its shoulders. Done like dinner.

Accurate shooting skills mandatory, and … tener cojones.
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Old May 9, 2013, 08:18 PM   #53
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S&W .500 350 Gr Bullet Vs. Bears And Grizzly Bears?

I never learn. Lots of passion surrounding this tired old topic and I let myself get sucked in... Again.

I bet not one poster in this thread has ever had to put a bear down, at least not a charging Brown Bear (myself included).

Closest I ever came was holding my 45-70 on one as the boat drifted toward him/her.

Lets be honest, none of us are experts. Though I'm incline to agree that sectional density is only second to shot placement.

Finally, I have known more than one person who was actually charged, they don't typically look like the pic Deaf Smith posted. From my second hand anecdotal information, head is usually lowered and ears back.

I'm also out.
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Old May 10, 2013, 04:36 AM   #54
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Bears

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so it’s a simple matter of emptying the gun (and busting up) its shoulders. Done like
A simple matter? As simple as that quick "step to the side"?
When the bear is seven yards out....and moving at about 30 mph.....that bear will cover that 21 feet in less than one half second. Shoot and step to the side?
Where is that happening? Walking your dog in Soldotna?
I have never been charged by a bear. I have though fished in bear territory.
Walking through the woods between the highway and the Kenai, I had enough difficulty just moving myself in waders, carrying the rod and my bag through the muck and the brush - and that was on the trail. There was going to be no quick step aside. I would have been lucky to bring the gun to bear.

About penetration .....what is up with that? One fellow says the the big, heavy bullets for the 500 are poor penetrators and then others say that they will penetrate end to end. There does not seem to be a consensus.
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Old May 10, 2013, 05:30 AM   #55
adn258
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Right. This is a tired old topic. I was just looking more for handgun suggestions but the .500 is likely out of the questions, and also what grains were considered acceptable in what gun brand. I think I'm highly leaning toward a .44 magnum and that should be fine for the unlikely chance this will ever be a problem anyway.

People here were starting to argue about what would be "best" and we could sit here all night and probably think of rounds that would almost certainly kill even a grizzly a bear deader than a door nail; the .375 H&H, certain .458 loads a .338 etc. etc. etc. but that's not the point for me. The point boils down to something I would want to carry that would probably work and that's also practical gun. The S&W 626 4 inch or the Alaskan Red Hawk .44 magnums seem VERY practical and realistic for this with a hard cast high grain bullet.

ON A SEPARATE SIDE NOTE AND SOMETHING SORT OF ENTERTAINING

I know someone who was almost killed by a bear. My fathers old business partner (a she) had a boy friend/significant other. They liked to go on exotic safari and hunting trips in other countries hunting dangerous and huge game. She owned a ranch here in Montana and there was a bear that can't mutilating and mauling her lamas and otherwise wrecking havoc on their property. (No I'm not kidding).

Finally one night her significant other was there and the animals were getting upset outside indicating there was a bear there. He grabbed the .458 they had and headed outside. All of a sudden while walking around the ranch/home the bear literally jumped out of the bushes about 10 feet in front of him teeth bared and ready to eat him alive.

Sure enough he shot the bear in the head with the .458 and the bear spun around in a circle once and fell over dead. He lived through this and when the bear was examined later this bear had all kinds of problems in including if I remember correctly broken teeth, glass lodged inside of him, and the bear was partially starved.

This bear was unusual but that's why it was killing things etc. there was something wrong with it.
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Old May 10, 2013, 07:23 AM   #56
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A 50 caliber 350 grain bullet has a really bad sectional density, I wouldn't go below 440 grain for a grizzly gun.
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Old May 10, 2013, 07:55 AM   #57
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If you're limited to only 300-350 grains with the .50 why not go to a .44mag? A 340 grain .429 bullet will have better BC and SD than the same weight in the .50, giving the .44 the advantage, assuming you're comparing both bullets at the same velocity. You also have the perk of being able to use .44 special for plinking or reduced recoil and bullet availability should be better with the .44.

You can also fire a 630 grain .458 cal bullet from a 45-70 it will have considerably better SD than a 600 grain 12 GA slug and likely have more muzzle energy.

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Old May 10, 2013, 08:21 AM   #58
Seaman
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“Shoot and step to the side?
Where is that happening? Walking your dog in Soldotna?” [darkgael]

Having a dog with you is an excellent point, a German shepherd is as good as a companion with a shotgun. Maybe better. I have seen big browns run from an attacking dog.

My preferred carry is a 44 Mag S&W 29 3” barrel. Have also carried 29s in 4” and 6.5” barrels. A shorter barrel gives better self defense rough and tumble options should I be surprise ambushed.

Best bang for the buck – Ruger Alaskan in 480 Ruger, for just a few grains more of H110 you can send a larger bullet, say 325gr, at about the same velocity as a 240gr 44 Mag.

I always carry a knife, a 69 yr old (Alaska) stopped a bear with a knife, ditto a 50-something yr old (Alberta?) not too long ago. Documented.

Don’t hunt anymore, just enjoy hiking.

That’s my 2 cents, I’m out.
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Old May 10, 2013, 10:34 AM   #59
Deaf Smith
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I am not arguing about what is 'best', only that a good cheap shotgun with Brenneke Black Magic will do the deed about as good as anything.

Like I've posted, I take my 629 but if I really was worried about bear I'd just ALSO take my Mossie 500 18 inch riot gun and those slugs.

Happily in Texas, where I'm at, about the worst you can run up against is a desperate black bear, cougar, gator, or hog. .44 will take care of them.

Deaf
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Old May 10, 2013, 05:51 PM   #60
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In Alaska the Wildlife commission recommends 12 gauge with slugs for bear medicine and the 12 is very popular up there for that use.
Take from me, a retired cop, or ask any other cop, commission folks are politicians who buy whatever is cheapest, hence a shotgun, and usually don't know much about what they are buying in the first place. Don't go by commissions or Police Chiefs, ask a guide, native Alaskan who lives and dies in the villages by polar bears, etc...
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Old May 10, 2013, 06:22 PM   #61
Deaf Smith
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Take from me, a retired cop, or ask any other cop, commission folks are politicians who buy whatever is cheapest, hence a shotgun, and usually don't know much about what they are buying in the first place. Don't go by commissions or Police Chiefs, ask a guide, native Alaskan who lives and dies in the villages by polar bears, etc..
They also recommend the .300 Winchester Magnum. Not exactly the cheapest.

Read the test articles I posted as well as the one where the many actually survived a bear attack using a 12 gauge and brenneke slugs.

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Old May 10, 2013, 06:57 PM   #62
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Recall an old Eskimo (from my youth, circa 1962) who carried a Lee-Enfield British 303. Took down a lot of bears.

Back then was pretty much the dawn of the 44 Magnum revolver, but I never saw anyone carrying one, not until later, after a certain cop movie was released in 1971.
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Old May 10, 2013, 09:49 PM   #63
Deaf Smith
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About 8 years ago some guys fishing in Alaska were attacked by a Brown bear.

One by the river had a Mossie 12 'cruiser'. He saw the bear running down the hill, racked the slide of the 12 and then couldn't remember if he short stroked or not so he dropped the gun in the water and dove into it!

Two of them on the hillside, with 9mm pistols, opened fire on the bear as it passed, breaking the hip bone, and the bear tumbled down the bank and died.

Well the guy in the water came out. Found his 12 gauge and check. Gun fully loaded so he didn't short stroke it.

But notice the 9mms broke the hip bone.

All is well that ends well!

And another one used a 9mm.

Both accounts are here.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...hreadid=126359


BTW, Grizzlies have been killed by hikers with .45 Autos when attacked.

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com...d-preserve5943

But he emptied the mag and the bear WALKED OFF and died.

And here is one with a .454 Casual (but he said it was luck shots.)

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...th-454-casull/

And another .454.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos...-killed-alaska

Deaf
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Old May 10, 2013, 10:25 PM   #64
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You have to get the loads down where you can shoot them well, and shoot them OFTEN....you always hear guys say "I could do it if I had to"...Not a chance!!!..If you can't shoot it well when you "want to"...there is NO WAY you can "do" it when you have to.
Easily the best line I've read on a gun forum in a long time. Its 100% true.
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Old May 11, 2013, 01:17 PM   #65
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Quote:
survived a bear attack using a 12 gauge and brenneke slugs
These are the slugs we actually carry when carrying a scattergun for various reasons.

Slugs of any type do not penetrate as well due to the shape, and sometimes some are brittle and break up on big bones. But, and there always is a but in life, if carrying a scattergun these are the best option ... at least at this time.
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Old May 11, 2013, 03:00 PM   #66
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I am no expert on brenneke slugs from a 12 ga. I think the 12 ga shotgun represents a more common gun and a gun that is not that hard to master sufficiently for general protection purposes. Kicks hard. Hard. I doubt it has the penertation of the 480/475 and up in the big bore handguns with an appropriate weight bullet for the caliber. But as someone said, you can penertrate the lungs with your 475 or 500 and the bear will die eventually, but it has time to take care of the pesky human who is bugging him/her for whatever reason. Hunting is a different matter

After reading this thread, I think you're better off with 400 gr+ hard cast bullets with the 500 S&W. Factory 350 gr are fairly easy to shoot from a recoil perspective.

I do like the 480/475 caliber. I'd like to own the Alaskan in 480 because I have two other handguns chambered for it. I don't have much need for big bear protection. Never go anywhere other than black bear woods and feel pretty comfortable with the 41 mag if I am actually worried about bear protection (usually I am more likely to have a 22LR revolver with me in the woods).

But if I were heading into big bear woods today, I'd probably take my 41 mag and feel pretty good about it. I would feel the same with a 44 mag with hard cast bullets. But I sure would like to get an Ruger Alaskan in 480 just for the fun of it. I like variety. But I'm a master of none... perhaps 22 revolvers and my 41 mag comes closest to being a pretty capable shooter. But I am not particularly interested in tactical drills and all that stuff.
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Old May 11, 2013, 03:00 PM   #67
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Love these bear threads, something about terror I think.
I've seen Blackies in the U.P but they seem to want to get as far away from me as fast as possible. Still one never knows when you might meet a grumpy one. While they don't compare to brown bears I have evolved from carrying a 6" model 629 to a 4" 625 in .45 colt stocked with a 300gr. cast bullet at about 1000fps. I don't shoot a lot of these out of my Smith, just use them for wood's situations. My thinking is big bullet less recoil.

Remember the first shot is single action for accuracy the next five are double action while he's chewing on your head.
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Old May 13, 2013, 05:47 PM   #68
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Black Bears can be very dangerous in Alaska

Quote:
I've seen Blackies in the U.P but they seem to want to get as far away from me as fast as possible.
Do not think this if you are in Alaska! Black Bears kill more people in Alaska than Grizz or Browns! They can be predatory in Alaska... Respect them, seriously...
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Old May 13, 2013, 07:40 PM   #69
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You need to respect all bears. A 100 lb yearly could cause you serious harm if it was intent on attacking you. Give them space. Learn the behavioral signs that they might be aggressive toward you.

I do love bear threads! Never had any serious problems with bear encounters and for the most part they high tail it when they detect a human. There are exceptions and those are the bears you pay close attention to. Studies have shown that young male black bears are the more prone to aggressive behavior toward humans.
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