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Old April 30, 2013, 09:42 PM   #1
David13
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Who Reloads .308 Win?

The reason I ask, is because I don't. Therefore I am buying brass and have brass left over (after I shoot), which I have decided to collect.
If there are reloaders who need brass, this is the proposal I make;
I will send you 100 empty brass, used once, unless specified as reloads, you reload some for yourself, and send me some as payment for the brass.
Does anyone have an offer or a comment?
Thanks
dc
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Old April 30, 2013, 10:56 PM   #2
Beentown71
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If you were local I am sure we could work something out but shipping would kill it.
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Old May 1, 2013, 01:58 AM   #3
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Re: Who Reloads .308 Win?

Ya don't think you can ship ammo
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Old May 1, 2013, 04:03 AM   #4
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Re: Who Reloads .308 Win?

The brass is just not worth that much trouble...
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Old May 1, 2013, 05:44 AM   #5
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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The answer here needed: Is there a Shipper that doesn't charge a Hazmat fee for transporting live ammunition?

S/S
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Old May 1, 2013, 08:00 AM   #6
vmaxmike
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NO live ammo is prohibited via USPS (only cheap shipper)

UPS and FedEx will take it but charge Hazmat fees.

I had a guy send me live ammo once via USPS flat rate box. It made it here, but I'd never want to risk the fine if caught
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Old May 1, 2013, 08:15 AM   #7
Beentown71
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Re: Who Reloads .308 Win?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Moose View Post
Ya don't think you can ship ammo
Yes, I ship it regularly. But shipping the few rounds that 100 rounds of brass exchange would not be worth the $28 hazmat fee.

Or should have I just said "Don't you know how to ship ammo ?"
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Old May 1, 2013, 08:39 AM   #8
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I have never paid a "Hazmat" fee when ordering live ammo.
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Old May 1, 2013, 08:50 AM   #9
Airman Basic
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Hey, SonOfGun, who you ordering from?
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Old May 1, 2013, 09:31 AM   #10
David13
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Any and everybody.
UPS doesn't charge a hazmat fee.
I got two orders going now and ... no hazmat fee.
And I never paid a hazmat fee either.
It has to be marked ORM-D.
dc
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Old May 1, 2013, 09:39 AM   #11
vmaxmike
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Sorry you are correct UPS it's the same rates but they require the shipper to be trained and have a proper labeling. I was thinking of powed and primers with UPS that is Hazmat but ammo is not ( figure that one? )

Not all USP shippers can send ammo.
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Old May 1, 2013, 10:42 AM   #12
Airman Basic
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Ha, never ordered loaded rounds, just components. Can't afford them fancy store-bought bullets, anyway.
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Old May 1, 2013, 12:08 PM   #13
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Both Fedex and UPS ship Ammo with no hazmat fee, only primers and powder require hazmat. but with the cost of components and the labor involved, trading brass for reloaded rounds isnt a good deal to me. especially with the cost of shipping involved. I recommend getting a press and a manual and a set of dies, and start a new hobby.
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Old May 1, 2013, 12:11 PM   #14
temmi
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I just would never load for someone else...

Sorry

Snake
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Old May 1, 2013, 12:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
I just would never load for someone else...
2x
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Old May 1, 2013, 12:23 PM   #16
Beentown71
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Re: Who Reloads .308 Win?

I had two different conversations going at the same time....no Hazmat on ammo but you can't use USPS which is the only "cheap" way to ship.
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Old May 1, 2013, 12:30 PM   #17
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…and there might not only be the liability potential but also there is the potential for arrest and jail if the BATFE decided this constituted manufacturing ammunition for compensation (the cases) without a license.

Because it may be unintentional solicitation to commit a crime, I'm going to close the thread and let one of the house lawyers give his opinion and reopen it if he thinks it's OK.
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Old May 1, 2013, 12:36 PM   #18
Brian Pfleuger
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Edit: UncleNick beat me to it but I'll leave this here for the applicable law references.

This would be, AT BEST, a legal grey area. It is illegal for an unlicensed person to manufacture ammunition "for livelihood or profit"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#h4
(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Back]

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]
Frankly, it seems out right illegal to me. The brass that the person keeps is pretty undeniably "profit". If it weren't why wouldn't they just buy their own?

The actual text of the law is even clearer:

18 U.S.C. 922

(a) It shall be unlawful
(1) for any person—
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce; or
(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to engage in the business of importing or manufacturing ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship, transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign commerce;
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; May 1, 2013 at 12:37 PM. Reason: Posted after closing.
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Old May 3, 2013, 10:41 AM   #19
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OK. The thread is back open after consultation with the legal eagles and other staff.


Law

Here's the deal: Barter does count as income, same as money, and its value is supposed to be reported to the IRS, same as any other income. However, the way the controlling law is written, an ammunition manufacturing license is required only if you are regularly engaged in trying to make a profit from it for part of your living. Note that you don't have to succeed at making a profit to contribute to supporting yourself; just be trying to. However, how much it takes to cross the line from occasional hobby behavior to "regularly engaged" is really vague.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

The issue will be one of frequency and volume.
  1. The guy who on occasion sells or trades a couple of boxes of his reloads to other guys at the club is probably in the clear.

  2. The guy who regularly spends two or three nights a week in the garage, after he gets home from his day job, reloading, and who then regularly takes several thousand of his reloads around to the local guns shows, probably has something to worry about without a license.

  3. The guy who usually goes to compete at his club's skeet or high power rifle or IDPA matches and usually has some extra of his reloads to sell or trade with other competitors who ask, he might be in a gray area.
Also, from Brian Pfleugger's background read that:
Quote:
18 USC § 921
(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.
So, in effect, every time someone sells brass or bullets, it's technically supposed to be subject to the same scrutiny as assembled ammunition. As a practical matter, I doubt that it is. However, the next time some gun control nut proposes a tax on ammunition, keep in mind it will affect all components and used components, and not just loaded rounds.

Bottom line on the legal front is, a one-time small transaction seems pretty unlikely to get you into legal trouble as I had been concerned might be the case. Hence reopening the thread. It just seemed prudent to get some educated input on the issue first.

Shipping

I believe this 2007 post still largely applies today, except the ORM-D classification is being eliminated (more like phased out, the way they are doing it) and the required label will be changed to an international symbol (see, here). The bottom line for shipping seems to me to boil down to a combination of using proper labeling and packaging. The exact packaging requirements are unclear. If you go by what airlines require, it is commercial packaging that separates each round, and that probably is a good guideline. Corrugated exterior packaging (the box) probably has to be new and unused, as is commonly required for hazardous materials in general. On the inside, I see no reason used cartridge boxes would not suffice, so long as they're intact and complete and intended for the caliber/cartridge shipped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UPS
Ammunition will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments, and must be shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping Ground and Air Hazardous Materials.
UPS tells me they require no hazmat fee for ORM-D.


Safety

This is personal opinion: I won't shoot ammunition loaded by someone else unless I was present during the loading to audit the work. I would not load for a stranger unless I had an ammunition manufacturer's liability insurance policy because my wife would kill me if we lost all we have in a law suit by the relatives of a person disabled by an accident the relatives blamed on me. Conversely, I would not shoot ammunition loaded by a stranger who did not have an ammunition manufacturer's liability insurance policy. I might not be inclined to sue him for an accident caused by his loads, since I chose to use them, but I can't guarantee my relatives would see it that way if I were out of commission. So, by using his loads I am putting him at risk.

Only God is perfect. Human beings, despite the best of intentions and all prudent precautions, still make mistakes from time to time. That's why I wouldn't load for a stranger without insurance for doing same, and apply the same reasoning in reverse. For anyone not sharing my view, caveat emptor and caveat venditor both apply.
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Last edited by Unclenick; May 3, 2013 at 10:53 AM. Reason: clarification and typo fixes
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Old May 4, 2013, 09:34 AM   #20
David13
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I am not soliciting any crime here. If anyone thinks anything here is a crime, then my offer or question is out. Ended.
I have been familiar with a number of judges over the years, both state and federal and I do believe that the vast majority would rule that ordinary trading like is done in any household situation, with food, drinks, ammo, or other household objects is not engaging in a trade or business.
That if a person does not have a business license, a place of business other than a room in the house, or the garage, if they do not charge money, if they are otherwise gainfully employed and obtain their income from other sources, that they are not in business.
But of course, who wants to go to court to hear that ruling? (Attorneys like to go to court to hear winning rulings).
On another forum someone else was going with the same question, and the big answer there was ... liability.
Someone getting injured or killed and the family or heirs suing.
And some anecdotal stories about such lawsuits.
So maybe the best answer is ... don't do it.
I shoot reloads all the time. From commercial sources. Some are low quality. Most are real good.
I'm still saving my brass.
dc
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