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Old April 28, 2013, 11:42 AM   #76
scrubcedar
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Thanks Al, I appreciate the citation, I knew there had been some sort of case but couldn't remember enough about it to even search.
Interesting to note none of the news reports mentioned it, champions of the first amendment that they are.
Yes, I had kept up on the news reports and knew about the kids wearing the shirts, which is why I noted above that corrective actions are taking place.

This sort of bullying by teachers is far more common than you think, and get's reported seldom. The administrators know it goes on, more than one has candidly admitted it to me. Because of union rules, tenure, etc., they cannot get rid of these problem individuals.
These are rogue teachers so to speak. They don't know, or simply don't care about rules and student's rights. They are ideologues, with a focus that is different than your average teacher. I'll give you odds that the principal didn't need to be told which teacher it was who started this.

My purpose was to educate folks about these circumstances so that they could fight the battle with their children as well.
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Old April 28, 2013, 11:43 AM   #77
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Quote:
Note that the school did not have him arrested. They did call the cops. It was up to the cops as to whether or not they made an arrest. They chose to do so.
The school had a choice, they could have handled the matter internally, with the student, teacher, Principal, and parents. I have had such meetings many times, I always prevailed without incident.

The school decided to involve LE. And, the Police have latitude not to arrest, unless the kid poses a threat, or, unless they have a complainant who is willing to press charges, and follow through. Given the charge, it appears the school was initially willing to do just that, then saw retrospectively that they were wrong, and backed away.

Quote:
students do not leave their 1A rights at the schoolhouse door: Tinker v. Des Moines (1969)
Thanks for the link Al, my point exactly. If you raise your kids to go to school and, mindlessly accept the orders of just any "authority figure" you are creating another sheep. (exactly what the schools would prefer) And, that mindset carries over into adulthood, just the kind of thing we all (ourselves) try and avoid being.

ETA: Schools are supposed to be about education, that process involves more than just absorbing material, it requires creativity, and self expression. If you remove those, or try and squash them, it stops being educating. IMO.
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Old April 28, 2013, 01:07 PM   #78
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For those of you that say what the shirt had on it was unimportant, imagine this - a black student wearing a Malcolm X t-shirt and told to reverse it. Malcolm X was a convicted felon and black separatist; would his picture not be "disruptive"? Perhaps a Hispanic youth and a Che Guevara t-shirt? Communist murderer, very disruptive.
It's because of the targeted youth and targeted group that it becomes politically acceptable to attack, as there are two groups of people who are not only not protected from discrimination, but actively targeted by every level - smokers and gun owners. This was pure politics, and as pointed out, the student and hundreds of his buddies showed up in NRA t-shirts without incident, because the school knew it had screwed up. Yes, I believe the student's family could certainly file a lawsuit, and should.
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Old April 28, 2013, 04:32 PM   #79
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Quote:
Secondly, students do not leave their 1A rights at the schoolhouse door: Tinker v. Des Moines (1969)
Yes and no. Students most certainly do leave some of their 1A rights at the door. Tinker v. Des Moines was not carte blanche stating schools had no control over any aspect of the 1A. Schools can and do have dress codes, can and do tell students when and where they are allowed to voice themselves and in what manners. Remember that Tinker v. Des Moines allows for free speech so long as it is not disruptive or interfering with the educational process. This is a key caveat.

So the question then is whether or not the shirt can be considered disruptive or not. Obviously, nobody here will think so as we all support the topic.
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Old April 28, 2013, 04:50 PM   #80
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Quote:
So the question then is whether or not the shirt can be considered disruptive or not.
True, in this case I'd put a finer point on it... Who made the shirt suddenly become disruptive?
My money is on the teacher who cried foul during lunch after it had been worn 1/2 the day.
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Old April 28, 2013, 05:57 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
The article reports that young Mr. Marcum was arrested for "disrupting an educational process and obstructing an officer" by refusing to remove the T-shirt. It seems to me that in this context, wearing a T-shirt, as opposed to refusing to remove it, is a distinction without a difference.
Does anyone know anything about West Virginia law? An arrest indicates a criminal action, which means there has to be a law against it. Is there really a law in West Virginia that says "Thou shalt not disrupt an educational process"? The arresting officer's report would have to cite the section(s) of statute violated -- is there a link anywhere to the arrest report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Schools can and do have dress codes,
This school has a dress code. And that dress code did NOT prohibit an NRA tee shirt, nor did it prohibit shirts with depictions of firearms.

So what's your point? If the dress code prohibits pink sneakers for guys and I show up wearing red sneakers and they order me to remove them, how have I violated the dress code?

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Old April 28, 2013, 07:36 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNS
Yes and no. Students most certainly do leave some of their 1A rights at the door. Tinker v. Des Moines was not carte blanche stating schools had no control over any aspect of the 1A. Schools can and do have dress codes, can and do tell students when and where they are allowed to voice themselves and in what manners. Remember that Tinker v. Des Moines allows for free speech so long as it is not disruptive or interfering with the educational process. This is a key caveat.
And just yet, I said that Tinker had been limited by several ensuing cases. And I said that none of those cases affected what was going on here.

To that proof, I offered not case law, but real life, in the form of many other students wearing the same style of T-Shirts that started this whole thing. A mere 2 days later!

If there was a violation of the dress codes, or if this somehow disrupted the educational process, then each and every kid who wore the shirt, last Monday, was guilty of a criminal violation.

Yet, and still, nothing happened.

You are aware that the "obstruction" charge was dropped? That the only charge still existing is the "Disruption of the Educational Process" charge? That the prosecutor is still debating if that charge even holds water?
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Old April 28, 2013, 08:00 PM   #83
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West Virginia teen arrested for wearing NRA shirt to school

Quote:
Originally Posted by armoredman View Post
For those of you that say what the shirt had on it was unimportant, imagine this - a black student wearing a Malcolm X t-shirt and told to reverse it. Malcolm X was a convicted felon and black separatist; would his picture not be "disruptive"? Perhaps a Hispanic youth and a Che Guevara t-shirt? Communist murderer, very disruptive.
It's because of the targeted youth and targeted group that it becomes politically acceptable to attack, as there are two groups of people who are not only not protected from discrimination, but actively targeted by every level - smokers and gun owners. This was pure politics, and as pointed out, the student and hundreds of his buddies showed up in NRA t-shirts without incident, because the school knew it had screwed up. Yes, I believe the student's family could certainly file a lawsuit, and should.
Any of those shirts should be allowed. Rights don't stop with what we like. The shirts aren't disruptive. The people who react to them in a disruptive manner are disruptive.
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Old April 28, 2013, 09:25 PM   #84
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Quote:
You are aware that the "obstruction" charge was dropped? That the only charge still existing is the "Disruption of the Educational Process" charge? That the prosecutor is still debating if that charge even holds water?
Is that charge actually in the criminal code? 'Cause it sounds like a "just make up something that sounds official".
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Old April 28, 2013, 10:46 PM   #85
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^Either way its not the kind of thing that should be used on a kid in a criminal court.
Shame on all of them.
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Old April 29, 2013, 12:48 AM   #86
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An update from last Monday: 8th grader suspended over t-shirt returns to school

The holding in Tinker is directly on point. From OYez:
Quote:
The wearing of armbands was "closely akin to 'pure speech'" and protected by the First Amendment. School environments imply limitations on free expression, but here the principals lacked justification for imposing any such limits.The principals had failed to show that the forbidden conduct would substantially interfere with appropriate school discipline.
Replace "arm-bands" with NRA 2A T-Shirt.

It also turns out that Jared is Allen Laudieri's (YouTube - BlackRifleAR15) step son, so now it makes sense why the kid stood up for his rights.

More news from Tuesday, the 23rd: Eighth-grader arrested over NRA shirt returns to school in same shirt - Yahoo! News
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Old April 29, 2013, 08:15 AM   #87
Dashunde
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Al's yahoo link above contains a re-cap of recent school flubs related to guns at the bottom of the article, its worthy of its own separate read...
I particularly like the kindergarten girl terrorist who might shoot you with her HelloKitty bubble gun.

Treating kids under 12 this way is far more troubling than any act they could pull off.
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Old April 30, 2013, 01:39 PM   #88
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This is the latest little snippet from WSAZ in West Virgina.

Quote:
An independent investigator will look into an incident in which a Logan Middle School student was suspended after refusing to remove a National Rifle Association T-shirt he wore to school.

The Logan County Board of Education agreed to hire the outside investigator......
http://www.wsaz.com/news/wvnews/head...203875101.html

Unfortunately they are mum as to specifically what the investigator is supposed to determine?

EDIT:... I find the wording "...agreed to hire..." curious as it suggests they are under outside pressure and submitted to this.

I wonder if it is pressure from the family and their lawyer and that they have come to an agreement to take certain actions based on findings from an outside investigation. A form of arbitration offered for "the good of all concerned" (my words here).

EDIT: Amended...

Quote:
It also turns out that Jared is Allen Laudieri's (YouTube - BlackRifleAR15) step son, so now it makes sense why the kid stood up for his rights.
Could this also be the reason the Band teacher decided to make Jared remove his shirt? Maybe this Band Teacher doesn't like what Allen Laudieri does. It is a small school in a small town, everyone knows everything and this was happening the same time as the AWB Bill was being shot down.
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Old April 30, 2013, 08:56 PM   #89
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Al -- very interesting, the Charleston papers did not carry anything that I saw about other students wearing similar shirts, or that he wore an NRA shirt on his return to school.

Of course both local papers (one ostensibly R and one ostensibly D) are both anti-gun and owned by the same woman.
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Old April 30, 2013, 10:00 PM   #90
MTGreen
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Defiance or obedience

I want to thank Double Naught Spy for presenting a reasonable case contrary to the general opinions of this thread.

I believe the situation was handled poorly by all involved, and support the student’s right to wear an NRA shirt to school.

Let’s keep in mind, however, that we are talking about an 8th grader, typically a 14 year old, defying a teacher’s effort to enforce the dress code. In this situation the student should at most respectfully ask to walk with the teacher to an administrator for further consideration of the issue.

To distinguish this case from Tinker (based upon the following holding only)

Quote:
In wearing armbands, the petitioners were quiet and passive. They were not disruptive and did not impinge upon the rights of others. In these circumstances, their conduct was within the protection of the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment and the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth. Pp. 505-506.
Unlike Tinker, this issue involved defiance that resulted in a disruption. Even with the teacher being wrong, there were avenues for redress that did not involve defiance or disruption.

I am a teacher and know the dress code is a difficult issue. I once raised the issue of a student wearing a pot leaf and was told that until it caused a disruption he could wear it. I followed up with the student and the students’ parents. The student was later expelled for selling pot on campus.

If we are trying to teach our kids how to support and defend the right to keep and bear arms, we should also teach them how to properly address the inevitable conflicts that will arise. An essential element in this effort is the recognition of and respect for authority, even when it is improperly exercised. Respecting authority is a first step to understanding how to effectively address the misuse or abuse of authority through appeal to a higher authority.
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Old April 30, 2013, 10:33 PM   #91
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MTGreen, sorry, but no.

Your quoted example supports Laudieri. The armband kids were wearing armbands, but not behaving in deliberately disruptive ways. Laudieri was wearing a shirt, and was not behaving in a disruptive way.

The disruption came when he refused, rightfully, to remove the shirt. Even then, he simply refused. Other kids may have started yelling, but that is not on Laudieri.

The teacher was wrong; the teacher was also very likely to have been politically motivated.
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Old May 1, 2013, 06:43 AM   #92
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West Virginia teen arrested for wearing NRA shirt to school

I agree with MLeake.

I have not read one thing in the reports indicating what behavior of the student was disruptive, only that the teacher made an issue of it in the lunchroom and other students cheered.

Also, it is not the 17 yr old student's responsibility to ask the teacher for a private discussion. The ADULT on the situation has the responsibility to avoid being disruptive since he initiates the confrontation.
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Old May 1, 2013, 07:20 AM   #93
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"Let’s keep in mind, however, that we are talking about an 8th grader, typically a 14 year old, defying a teacher’s effort to enforce the dress code."

Except that, by the school district's attorney's indication, there was NO dress code violation:

"However, an attorney with Logan County Schools says the T-shirt did not violate the school’s rules." http://www.wsaz.com/news/wvnews/head...203875101.html

The student in this case knew the dress code better than the employee, and yet was still penalized for it.

No one sees anything wrong with that?
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Old May 1, 2013, 07:31 AM   #94
Dashunde
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Quote:
Let’s keep in mind, however, that we are talking about an 8th grader, typically a 14 year old, defying a teacher’s effort to enforce the dress code. In this situation the student should at most respectfully ask to walk with the teacher to an administrator for further consideration of the issue.
With keeping his age in mind, I know of few 14 year olds that have the poise or maturity to manage a conflict with an adult in such a way.
Deferring the issue to the administrator is purely the responsibility of the teacher, and that option should have been in the teachers mind before ever confronting the kid, and then utilized at the first sign of resistance.
Pushing the issue to disruption is the teachers error.
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Old May 1, 2013, 07:42 AM   #95
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Quote:
No one sees anything wrong with that?
This is a good life lesson for the kid with the NRA shirt.

First, The establishment enforces the rules, be it the state, federal gov't or just a po-dunk local school district as they see fit and when it suits them. They also make them up on the fly when needed.

Second, just because you are not violating any laws/rules does not mean you cannot be arrested.


The kid did the right thing in not resisting the arrest or he would be facing some real difficult charges. Sometimes its just best to call the lawyers.
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Old May 1, 2013, 07:48 AM   #96
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Quote:
If we are trying to teach our kids how to support and defend the right to keep and bear arms, we should also teach them how to properly address the inevitable conflicts that will arise. An essential element in this effort is the recognition of and respect for authority, even when it is improperly exercised. Respecting authority is a first step to understanding how to effectively address the misuse or abuse of authority through appeal to a higher authority.
"Respecting authority" is not the same thing as kowtowing to an idiot who is abusing his authority. I agree with what Patriot86 just said.
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Old May 1, 2013, 08:49 AM   #97
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Dashunde,

I agree most 14 year olds do not know how to handle conflicts with adults, that is why students should obey directions from people in authority that are not harmful to themselves or others, and let their parents know so adults can handle the conflict. People without the ability to properly confront authority should not be encouraged to confront it.

Last edited by MTGreen; May 1, 2013 at 09:10 AM.
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Old May 1, 2013, 09:07 AM   #98
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Quote:
gaseousclay, in high school I often wore an Amnesty International t-shirt. What if that had offended somebody?

In the early 1990s, what if a kid had worn a Mandela or "End Apartheid" shirt?

Today, some kids wear Che Guevara shirts.

So why would you try to justify, in the slightest, the idiotic position taken by this school and its resource officer?
I said I was sitting on the fence with the issue and not taking sides. just because YOU think the school's policies are idiotic is irrelevent. it's the school's jurisdiction and as such they have the right to enforce their policies as they see fit. gun rights, as espoused by the NRA, are a divisive issue in the US. comparing a pro-gun NRA t-shirt to human rights issue-related t-shirts such as Amnesty International and Apartheid is disingenuous imo.

But I will say that based on what i've read the student did nothing to violate school policy, so my opinion means nothing.
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Old May 1, 2013, 09:11 AM   #99
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The NRA t-shirt is only divisive because of the media portrayal of the NRA. I fail to see how an organization that promotes responsible firearms ownership and practices is more politically disruptive than some punk kid wearing a Che t-shirt.

I see paralles between the NRA and Amnesty International in that they are both controversial organizations who attempt to do good, and such, can be targeted by politically motivated folks.

The teacher in this case.
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Old May 1, 2013, 09:31 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
The article reports that young Mr. Marcum was arrested for "disrupting an educational process and obstructing an officer" by refusing to remove the T-shirt. It seems to me that in this context, wearing a T-shirt, as opposed to refusing to remove it, is a distinction without a difference.
Emphasis added. I find this charge at least as interesting as the charge of "disrupting an educational process".

"Obstructing an officer" by failing to do the arbitrary thing he wants you to do reads very much like "contempt of cop".
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