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Old April 24, 2013, 09:56 AM   #26
ATW525
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Quote:
It would seem like you'd just need to learn to play their "game".

A group of guys get together, including the CNC programmer, and buy a bunch of 80% lowers. Each guy owns a percentage of every gun, including the programmer.

All the work is done and each person sells their ownership in all but one lower for 1 cent. The programmer, who may or may not actually want to own one, can sells his portion for a bit more.

How would that be illegal?
If they are manufacturing firearms with the intent of selling off their ownership of said firearms, I would think they would need an FFL07 to be legal.
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Old April 24, 2013, 10:00 AM   #27
Brian Pfleuger
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Him the CNC owner.

Seems like if every guy owns part of the gun, there really can't be any issue that you're not doing work on your own gun.


Quote:
If they are manufacturing firearms with the intent of selling off their ownership of said firearms,
Could be... but...

It might be even simpler, it might be that only the one guy (programmer) needs to have ownership interest in each gun.

He can pay 1 cent toward each lower.

No need to "sell" his interest. He forever owns a 1 cent share of each gun.
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Old April 24, 2013, 10:11 AM   #28
JimDandy
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No need to "sell" his interest. He forever owns a 1 cent share of each gun
Is that allowed? In some states I've heard firearms are tied to FOID type cards, meaning a husband and wife can't even share a home defense gun.
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Old April 24, 2013, 10:32 AM   #29
Brian Pfleuger
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I have no idea, Jim. I'm just throwing it out there. Absolutely no breaking the law, but there's no harm in bumping up against the law and seeing how far it bends. People do it all the time in all manner of endeavors. I'm not suggesting anything as an actual action, just wondering where the law is on it.

Most states don't have any type of FOID card for long guns and there is no registry of ownership. Even in NY, a single handgun can be on multiple permits, son and father, husband and wife, I've never seen any requirement that the people are related. There are no permits or permission for rifles at all, except the new assault rifle registry and I have no idea how that works. I don't think it will be around long anyway.

It's probably an entirely different legal challenge but I don't know how any level of government could justify prohibiting co-ownership of ANY item.
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Old April 27, 2013, 01:15 PM   #30
johnwilliamson062
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Sounds like a trust is in need...
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Old April 27, 2013, 03:49 PM   #31
Aguila Blanca
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How would a trust solve anything? The law (or the regulation) is that it is legal for an individual to make (manufacture) his/her own firearm. The BATFE has graciously allowed this to be interpreted that, as long as the owner performs at least 20 percent of the work him/herself, it is still considered to be making your own firearm.

How is a trust (which is a legal entity that has no physical body) going to operate a lathe or a milling machine?

I'll be honest -- people who do stunts like these "build parties" and try to push the envelope on the law/regulation are not doing the rest of us any favors. It's only going to take a couple more cases like this before the BATFE just pulls the plug on "80 percent" receivers and rules that if you didn't make the entire gun yourself, from scratch out of a solid block of steel or alloy, you didn't make it yourself and it's not legal.

As a frustrated tinkerer who would love to do an 80 percent receiver one of these days, seeing people trying to game the system royally [irritates] me. They think they're being cute and smart, and all they're doing is undercutting those of us who are willing to do it the right (legal) way. They're going to ruin it for the rest of us, and I think that's truly sad.
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Old April 29, 2013, 09:12 PM   #32
johnwilliamson062
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I'm not a lawyer, but...

I don't know what BATFE has decreed. I am sure they haven't limited themselves from regulating it because they want to be nice. They haven't regulated it because the can't stretch the commerce clause to a gun that is never going to be bought, sold, or traded. That is it. They have restricted as far as they think they can without pushing it to where they have to worry about a court case that takes away some of their power.

I am quite sure BATFE doesn't really like NFA trusts either, but in the end they can't do anything about them.
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Last edited by johnwilliamson062; April 29, 2013 at 09:18 PM.
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Old May 1, 2013, 02:17 PM   #33
orangello
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It's funny the feds cry "fowl" when consumer technology changes but don't seem to mind using it for themselves (drones & electronic surveillance & GPS tracking devices, etc.).
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Old May 4, 2013, 10:24 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmsss
Have you ever seen one of these CNC mills? There's no way on earth you would be able to set it up on your own premises unless you already have the facilities a commercial shop would need.
Can you tell me what planet I'm on? The CNC mill in my garage (Bridgeport #1 with a CNC kit) has been there for about 10 years now. Seems like about every third garage around here has something like one of these Tormach's in it.

http://www.tormach.com/product_pcnc_770.html
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Old May 4, 2013, 10:23 PM   #35
johnwilliamson062
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Every third garage has a $15000 CNC set-up in your neighborhood?
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Old May 4, 2013, 11:21 PM   #36
Aguila Blanca
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Here's a CNC machine from a firearms factory -- Caspian Arms, to be precise. Just this one CNC machine is about the size of a spacious single car garage.



Here's a bank of three of their older, "small" CNC machining centers:

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Old May 5, 2013, 06:32 AM   #37
wally626
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Every third garage has a $15000 CNC set-up in your neighborhood?
It was not uncommon where I grew up for persons to have very extensive machining equipment set-ups, CNC was not around at the time but some did indeed, have mills, lathes, drill presses, benders and other common metal working tools. Of course set ups for wood were much more common than for metal. When my father-in-law built his garage he installed several 220V outlets so he could get more industrial type equipment for his shop.

Industrial machines are designed for through-put requiring larger back-up equipment and are often 5 or 6 axis as well as handling larger parts than the small home CNC might be expected to handle. Even then if you have the cash and a 220V outlet you can fit a pretty capable system in your garage. I have a colleague who rebuilds turbojet engines in his garage, rare yes, but those types of people exist. Just like people with fine engraved guns worth well over $15,000 each.
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Old May 5, 2013, 08:10 AM   #38
Brian Pfleuger
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Lathes and drill presses are common equipment. CNC machines are not.

"Every 3rd garage" having CNC machines is a bit more than a stretch. I know of one single person who owns such things for personal use. He's a pharmacist who always wanted to be a machinist but his father made him go to pharmacy school. No way do such machines exist in remotely close to 1 in 3 garages, unless you find one and stop counting after the next two.
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Old May 6, 2013, 12:16 PM   #39
Plumbnut
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Why would you want to buy an 80% receiver when you can buy a completely machine receiver for $150.00-$200 ?

I charge over 100.00 an hour for my labor so I for sure wouldn't be saving any money and I assume other peoples time is valuable a well.

I suppose the only reason I can come up with is for the fun/hobby of it.

Thoughts?
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Old May 6, 2013, 12:33 PM   #40
Plumbnut
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Someone suggested that the person that finished the machining could retain 1% ownership of the firearm. I though when more that one owner existed the gun had be be part of a corporation or be put into a trust. The only exception I could think of where that wouldn't be true is for a married couple where all property is joint owned.

Where the lawyers? Please help if you will!

Last edited by Plumbnut; May 6, 2013 at 04:15 PM. Reason: typos
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Old May 6, 2013, 01:00 PM   #41
csmsss
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Can you tell me what planet I'm on? The CNC mill in my garage (Bridgeport #1 with a CNC kit) has been there for about 10 years now. Seems like about every third garage around here has something like one of these Tormach's in it.

http://www.tormach.com/product_pcnc_770.html
That isn't a commercial production mill. That's a hobbyist mill, not intended for nor cable of sustained production use.
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Old May 6, 2013, 01:04 PM   #42
csmsss
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I don't know what BATFE has decreed. I am sure they haven't limited themselves from regulating it because they want to be nice. They haven't regulated it because the can't stretch the commerce clause to a gun that is never going to be bought, sold, or traded. That is it. They have restricted as far as they think they can without pushing it to where they have to worry about a court case that takes away some of their power.
See Wickard v. Filburn, which is still law of the land. Roscoe Filburn had a bunch of wheat that he was never going to sell or trade - just consume on his farm. And according to SCOTUS, the commerce clause extended to the feebs the right to regulate/tax the wheat and/or prohibit him from growing it. There are precious few transactions which a jurist with a generous view of the commerce clause cannot squeeze into the tent.
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Old May 6, 2013, 04:07 PM   #43
speedrrracer
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Latest updates still do not have a complete picture. Here's the quote so I don't screw it up:

Quote:
We were advised by Jason that the ATF now considers providing someone a pre-programmed CNC machine with fixtures in place as "manufacturing". It doesn't matter if you have an FFL 07. With an FFL 07, it seems that a person could still rent the CNC and push the button, but the lower would have to be manufactured under the name of the company who holds the FFL. It would need to be properly serialized and go through the normal background check, paperwork, and 10 day wait period associated with purchasing a firearm in CA. This is what we were expressly told by our lawyer because we specifically asked if an FFL 07 would be a possible solution to this problem.
So there is no clarity on:

What if the fixtures are not already in place? IOW, what if the machine is pre-programmed but I put the fixtures in their places?

or

What if the fixtures are in place but I provide my own code? If I bring my code from home, do I have to upload it, or can that be a service provided by the shop?

More confusion and chaos, courtesy of the idiots at the F-troop.
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Old May 6, 2013, 06:27 PM   #44
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedrrracer
More confusion and chaos, courtesy of the idiots at the F-troop.
I'm probably in a minority, but I don't see that the BATFE has in any way created any confusion or chaos on this. What I see is that some small groups of people have tried to sneak around the requirement of doing at least 20 percent of the work themselves in order for a so-called "80 percent" receiver to be considered home made. Awhile back I was negotiating with the owner of a small, independent machine shop to rent time on his Bridgeport (not a CNC) to do an 80 percent receiver. Sadly, his health forced him to close the shop and retire before I ever got to bring my project to fruition, but the core of our discussions was that we both wanted to follow the law, which meant that **I** had to do the work. I was going to pay him to stand there and coach me through the steps, but neither of us wanted to become a felon at our age (we're both Vietnam veterans and senior citizens).

The problem with trying to translate this to a CNC machine is that there isn't any definition of "work" relating to a CNC. Just mounting a fixture to a machine that has already been programmed for the job? I can't see how that's worth more than a couple of percent. Uploading the code? Ditto.

Maybe actually writing the code could count for a chunk of the percentage. I don't know -- I've never worked with a CNC machine and I have no idea how time-intensive it is to write the code. But I don't think the participants in these parties are interested in writing the code for themselves. I think they are just looking to do an end run around the 20 percent parameter. Letting someone else's CNC machine, running someone else's code, finish your 80 percent receiver to me isn't any different from if I were to hand a receiver to my now-retired acquaintance and tell him to go ahead and finish the piece ... but let me push the button when he's ready to turn on the machine. I just don't think that's what the BATFE had in mind in allowing 80 percent receivers to be completed by the owner.
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