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Old April 17, 2013, 10:26 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrey
Ayoob can say what he wants, I don't care....
That's fine. It won't be my problem. As I wrote in post 10:
Quote:
A fellow I know who is a police officer, police firearms instructor and armorer will not set the trigger of a 1911 intended for service use to less than four pounds. He likes 4.5 pounds, and I have all my 1911s that I might carry set between four and five pounds.
If the four to five pound trigger in my 1911 ever became an issue in court, he would be an expert witness testifying for me (as would Massad Ayoob).

If your 2.5 to 3.5 1911 trigger ever became an issue for you in court, he, or someone like him, will be testifying for the DA as an expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrey
...Heavy triggers and accurate shooting don't go together....
If one can't shoot a decent four to five pound 1911 trigger, or a stock Glock with its 5.5 pound trigger, accurately, he needs more training and practice.
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Old April 17, 2013, 10:35 PM   #27
jfrey
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Well Frank, you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong. I've put many thousands of rounds down range and a 5.5 pound Glock trigger sucks. My 1911s are range guns and I like 'em that way. I set my triggers to what ever suits me, not someone else. They ain't shootin 'em either, I am.
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Old April 17, 2013, 10:44 PM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrey
Well Frank, you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong. I've put many thousands of rounds down range and a 5.5 pound Glock trigger sucks....
Well, I can shoot pretty decently with a Glock 19 or 17 with its stock trigger -- Although I prefer a 1911.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrey
...My 1911s are range guns and I like 'em that way...
And my 1911s are carry guns (I carry whenever I legally can). And four to five pounds has worked just fine for me in the classes I've taken.

As I've said, do what you want. It won't be my problem.
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Old April 17, 2013, 10:45 PM   #29
JohnKSa
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Quote:
Heavy triggers and accurate shooting don't go together.
Tell that to the guy I watched make a first round hit on a bowling pin at 50 yards last month.

He did it using a Glock pistol with all factory parts. Measured trigger pull on the gun was 6lbs 8oz.

If the trigger pull is smooth without appreciable overtravel, it doesn't need to be light to attain good accuracy.

People obsess over trigger weight, but a relatively heavy trigger pull is not a hindrance to good accuracy if the trigger is otherwise a good trigger. I agree that past a point, a trigger can be so heavy that it's really difficult to attain good accuracy, however that limit is much higher than many people seem to think. It is certainly possible to attain excellent accuracy with trigger pull weights well over 5lbs.
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Old April 18, 2013, 11:29 AM   #30
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by jfrey: Ayoob can say what he wants, I don't care. He's not the end all authority in my book.
Your "book" won't matter if you are ever engaged in a use of force encounter and a prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney decides to make a case of your trigger pull. Someone else will decide who is an "authority" (an expert witness) and who is not. Ayoob has served as one many times, but if you carry a handgun with a trigger pull that most expert consider imprudent, do not expect him to agree to testify in your behalf, and you should not expect to find any other expert who will do so, either.

Quote:
My 1911s are set from 2.5 to 3.5 pounds depending on which one it is and all break like a glass rod.
That may be OK for target shooting, but I sure would not want to use one of those in a defensive use of force encounter.

Quote:
My Glock 19 is 4 pounds. Heavy triggers and accurate shooting don't go together.
For defensive shooting the heavier pull has its advantages, and small target groups are not very important.

There are reasons why police officers, ranked competitors, and informed citizens do not carry Glock pistols with four pound pulls.

Quote:
I want light and smooth triggers on any gun I shoot.
Informed persons do not want them on guns that they may have to use for serious purposes.

Should you ever shoot anyone, your trigger pull will be tested and the results will be entered into evidence. A trigger pull with of 2.5 to 3.5 pounds will almost certainly be used against you. Even if you claim that you fired intentionally and with justification, that trigger pull weight can be used to persuade the triers of fact otherwise.

Expert testimony will favor the other side.

And in a civil case, the burden of proof for the plaintiff would simply be a preponderance of the evidence.

At that point, you will most likely wish that you had not elected to carry a gun with a light trigger.

I sure would never do so. Too much downside, and so little upside.

Quote:
I set my triggers to what ever suits me, not someone else.
In the event of an injury, someone else will decide what a prudent person would have carried.
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Old April 18, 2013, 12:51 PM   #31
newfrontier45
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All very interesting but for those of us who choose to think for ourselves, it's just a theory. I have the utmost respect for Mas but I don't swallow everything anybody says without engaging my brain. My brain tells me that Mas tells us to be afraid of things that have not proved to be a threat. Not unlike the Boogeyman under the bed.

If you keep your finger off the trigger until you have decided to fire, it is a non-issue.

If the shoot is justified, it is a non-issue.

In the context of a physical fight for your life in which a trigger may inadvertently get pressed, two or three pounds is insignificant.

If an individual spends 100hrs a year training with a 2lb trigger and 0hrs with a 6lb Glock trigger, then he is safest with a 2lb trigger.

If an individual spends 100hrs a year training with an 6lb Glock trigger and 0hrs with a 2lb trigger, then he is safest with a 6lb Glock trigger.


Quote:
It is certainly possible to attain excellent accuracy with trigger pull weights well over 5lbs.
And easier to do so with a 3lb trigger.

Last edited by newfrontier45; April 18, 2013 at 12:57 PM.
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Old April 18, 2013, 01:26 PM   #32
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfrontier45
All very interesting but for those of us who choose to think for ourselves, it's just a theory. I have the utmost respect for Mas but I don't swallow everything anybody says without engaging my brain. My brain tells me that Mas tells us to be afraid of things that have not proved to be a threat. Not unlike the Boogeyman under the bed.

If you keep your finger off the trigger until you have decided to fire, it is a non-issue.

If the shoot is justified, it is a non-issue.

In the context of a physical fight for your life in which a trigger may inadvertently get pressed, two or three pounds is insignificant....
And having practiced law for over thirty years I know, based on my understanding of how things work in the legal system, that in the legal aftermath of a use of lethal force which you claim was justified, if the authorities do not agree, that is simply not true.

Believe as you wish, but ask yourself why you believe it. Do you have the training, experience and first hand knowledge of how things work in the legal system? Massad Ayoob and some others with whom you're disagreeing do have such training, knowledge and experience.

In any case, it won't be my problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfrontier45
...If the shoot is justified, it is a non-issue...
But you won't be the one who gets to make the final decision about whether you act of extreme violence against another human was justified. That decision will first be decided by the District Attorney and/or the grand jury. And if you're really unlucky, it will finally be decided by a trial jury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfrontier45
...In the context of a physical fight for your life in which a trigger may inadvertently get pressed, two or three pounds is insignificant. ...
Really? How do you know?
  • Having lightened the trigger, a prosecutor can vilify you as reckless and trigger happy. That will not sit well with a jury of folks who know nothing about, and aren't interested in, guns. The prosecutor will no doubt be able to find and put on the witness stand a police armorer or firearms instructor as an expert witness that something like a 3.5 pound trigger on a gun to be carried for self defense is reckless.

  • You might claim that you acted intentionally in self defense, but the prosecutor could point to the lightened trigger and perhaps convince a jury that you actually fired the gun accidentally. That might get you convicted of involuntary manslaughter.

  • Messing around with your carry gun might not hurt you in court, but it sure won't help you any. And it really won't help you on the street. If you can't manage a stock, service Glock or a 1911 with a 4.5 pound trigger in a real life encounter, it's you and not the gun (get some serious training and practice).
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfrontier45
...If an individual spends 100hrs a year training with a 2lb trigger and 0hrs with a 6lb Glock trigger, then he is safest with a 2lb trigger.

If an individual spends 100hrs a year training with an 6lb Glock trigger and 0hrs with a 2lb trigger, then he is safest with a 6lb Glock trigger...
Which is why one should do his self defense training and practice with a gun having a proper, decent service trigger (rather than one with a target trigger).

For further discussion of possible legal issues associated with using for self defense a gun with a very light trigger see here, here, here, here, and here.
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Old April 18, 2013, 01:52 PM   #33
newfrontier45
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Like I said, it's an interesting theory but there is little to no evidence to support it. Some people believe it, some very firmly but that doesn't make it more than what it is.....just a theory.


Quote:
And having practiced law for over thirty years...
So? Did you ever defend someone in a self defense shooting who used a 2lb trigger? Being an attorney means very little if you do not have any direct experience. There are lots of attorneys and I would no sooner ask a title attorney about self defense issues than I would ask my plumber to re-roof my house. Or ask my dentist to do open heart surgery.


Quote:
Which is why one should do his self defense training and practice with a gun having a proper, decent service trigger (rather than one with a target trigger).
That is up to the individual. Personally, I have no desire to do that much shooting with a handgun with a heavy trigger. Period. I shoot tens of thousands of rounds a year and while much of what I do is to increase my skill with a handgun, self defense is not my primary concern. It is far from the only reason to own and use a handgun.


Quote:
Believe as you wish, but ask yourself why you believe it. Do you have the training, experience and first hand knowledge of how things work in the legal system? Massad Ayoob and some others with whom you're disagreeing do have such training, knowledge and experience.
I believe it because I think for myself. I do not worship Ayoob or anyone else. If someone, anyone tells me I should be afraid of something, I want to know why. To simply swallow it and go forth afraid of the Boogeyman, because a self appointed expert told me to be, is to surrender my own judgement and that is something I will not do.

Prove it. Show me. Until there are FACTS to support it, it is no more than a theory. No matter how many certificates the person concocting the theory has.

My thoughts mirror posts #2 and #4 in this thread.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393404
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Old April 18, 2013, 02:03 PM   #34
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfrontier45
...I believe it because I think for myself. I do not worship Ayoob or anyone else. If someone, anyone tells me I should be afraid of something, I want to know why. To simply swallow it and go forth afraid of the Boogeyman, because a self appointed expert told me to be, is to surrender my own judgement and that is something I will not do....
And that's what it finally comes down to -- using your own judgment and relying on your own opinion.

But all opinions are not equal. An opinion backed up by relevant education, knowledge and experience is one thing. An opinion snatched out of thin air is another. The opinion of my doctor about my health is much more worthy of consideration than that of my mechanic.

So by all means, rely on your opinion. I will, however, dismiss it.

The matter is fully explored in the threads I've linked to. There's no reason to rehash that all here.

So I'll close this thread.

If someone thinks he has something new to add, please send me a PM; and I can consider re-opening the thread.
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