The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 9, 2013, 09:34 PM   #26
mattL46
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2013
Posts: 376
Reloading is expensive and does require time. Lots of it. So considering you do roll your own and are still displeased there are many other avenues as mentioned above. Any action can be tuned and trued. Lots of barrel options out there. That's the way I would go before parting with anything. All of my firearms are special to me and I'm greedy and don't want to get rid of any. But I do understand smith work is very costly too and might not feel as right as a whole new toy. Good luck sir. Please update us!!
mattL46 is offline  
Old April 9, 2013, 09:46 PM   #27
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,290
I looked at your previous posts and I am a fan of your "brand of choice" as well. I have seen a few tack driving rifles but most of them were not quite MOA on a good day. I was raised to think there was nothing but this brand, and while I still have all the faith in the world in their handguns, I have learned that there are better shooting rifles out there. However their new budget priced rifle is out-shooting their more expensive offering. If your looking for out of the box accuracy with a reasonable budget, I recomend a Savage. The older Remingtons have a great rep for accuracy but you may find the newer ones to be sort of hit and miss, literally and figuratively.
__________________
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
steveNChunter is offline  
Old April 10, 2013, 08:18 PM   #28
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 5,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdd
As time progressed and money became more readily available, I upgraded scopes. Then triggers. Then started fine tuning ammo.
I'd say by that sentence the OP rolls his own. However I looked at a few of his old post as well and while he uses a durable hunting rifle, I've never heard of one being a true tack driver without a ton of work. To the OP branch out and try a different brand, but don't give up your favorites either.
__________________
NRA Life Member
The Truth About Guns
taylorce1 is offline  
Old April 10, 2013, 09:38 PM   #29
boattale
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2012
Posts: 118
Speaking strictly for myself if I did not have confidence that my rifle/scope combination was better than I am I would get a better rifle/scope combination.
__________________
Its all downhill from here. Except the parts that are uphill.
boattale is offline  
Old April 10, 2013, 09:41 PM   #30
mattL46
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2013
Posts: 376
@ taylor-Missed that little gem didn't I. Anyway concerning the brand I'm a big follower too and the Single shot models I've heard to be more accurate than their bolt driven brethren. My dad has one in 222mag...its a tack driver. He also did a lot of work to it. Of course by nature singles are a little more accurate though and maybe bolts are your true passion.
mattL46 is offline  
Old April 11, 2013, 04:49 AM   #31
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,290
Quote:
Of course by nature singles are a little more accurate
If you are referring to a breakdown style single shot such as the #1, that is most certainly NOT true.

While a mediocre bolt action may not shoot as good an exceptional single shot, generally speaking the bolt action is a more accurate design than a breakdown single. Thats not just my opinion, its proven fact.

But in the case of a single shot bolt action, I could agree with your statement.
__________________
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood

Last edited by steveNChunter; April 11, 2013 at 04:59 AM.
steveNChunter is offline  
Old April 11, 2013, 05:45 AM   #32
mattL46
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2013
Posts: 376
Steven what do you mean when you say break down. I wasn't aware the #1s were of that nature. Because the barrel mates to the receiver via threads? The fact that I do know is the one I've had the most experience with is very accurate. And my experience through life of firearms has proved most any single loading falling or otherwise hinged breech block weapon was more accurate than most bolts I've ever encountered. Just my experience.
mattL46 is offline  
Old April 11, 2013, 06:28 AM   #33
mattL46
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2013
Posts: 376
I'll recant a bit I do agree that the bolt style action has the ability to be more accurate. 90% of all match rifles you see are bolts. The lock up and lock times are superior. But again my experience has been different. I will be humble and say I've never had the opportunity to compare a hot rod bolt to an equivalent single. The two singles I've had most experience with a very custom #1 and very custom low wall punch ragged holes all day. But I was forgetting about my sako L46...(which is regarded as one of the most accurate tools of all time) which might out do both on a bad day. So after some thought I must agree. Just don't overlook them
mattL46 is offline  
Old April 11, 2013, 01:58 PM   #34
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,290
Sorry, forgot the #1 is indeed a falling block and not a breakdown or "hinged" style single shot. Never owned one and been awhile since I've been around one. But as far as single shots go the falling block is the most accurate design. And just to clarify I think the #1's are fine rifles, but there's a reason most benchrest target rifles are a bolt action single.
__________________
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
steveNChunter is offline  
Old April 11, 2013, 04:19 PM   #35
mattL46
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2013
Posts: 376
No biggie Steven I was trying hard to relate breakdown to the #1 ha ha. Yes the couple I've have experience with are very very accurate. But I wasn't thinking about the fine details of a bolt. Again I will have to end up agreeing with the notion. Like you said it isn't opinion its fact. Lock up is usually tighter and lock times shorter. I do have a huge soft spot for a falling block action though they are just super slick. And when I said hinged I was referring to the likes of a martini. Not a break open or anything similar. I have the pleasure to tinker with one of those regularly as well. Talk about sweet. I load for my brothers in 357 mag. Very accurate as well.
mattL46 is offline  
Old April 11, 2013, 05:16 PM   #36
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,290
Quote:
Regardless of which way I go, it will be stainless and synthetic. Also it will be a sporter contour barrel at least 22" but maybe 24" chambered for 22-250
Savage offers the Weather Warrior model 116 in 22-250 with a 22" barrel.



http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/
__________________
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
steveNChunter is offline  
Old April 12, 2013, 08:42 PM   #37
tobnpr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 2,955
What Powderman said...

There are multiple parts of a weapon system that affect accuracy, and it can be all of them, some of them, or just one of them, that can affect accuracy from just a "teeny" bit each, to a whole bunch....

If your action is moving in the stock, it matters not how consistent your ammo is...or the precision of the fit of the components of the action, or the barrel itself. It's gonna shoot like crap...

There could be barrel issues, not visible without a borescope.

Some variables are easier to isolate and evaluate than others.
Is the action properly epoxy bedded into the stock, with pillars, and the barrel free-floated? If not, I'd certainly start there...

Production barrels vary widely in consistency and accuracy. If all else checks out, that's a common reason for not being able to achieve at least minute of angle accuracy with a factory rifle.

It takes major issues with an action for a rifle that's properly set up otherwise not to shoot moa or better with handloads- so that's not where I'd start. Blueprinting an action helps, but it's more fine-tuning.

Some rifles will shoot just about anything accurately, others will be pickier than a two-year old about it. But handloading is the cheapest (you're gonna buy ammo, anyway) way to rule out being "picky" about ammo as a cause of inaccuracy.

Of course, you'd have to be able to buy powder, primers, and bullets...
__________________
Custom Bent Bolts and Gunstocks for the Mosin-Nagant
www.biggorillagunworks.com
tobnpr is offline  
Old April 13, 2013, 01:39 PM   #38
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 3,287
Buzzcook, +100
__________________
Thanks for coming!
hooligan1 is offline  
Old April 15, 2013, 07:56 PM   #39
GeauxTide
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Helena, AL
Posts: 3,070
As I've grown more manure, and two cervical discs make their case for recoil reduction, I've had my epiphany. Reduce recoil. I can still shoot my '06 class rifles to 2MOA; however, I can shoot my 223 and 260 into less than 1/2MOA. Same goes with pistols. 357, 41, 44mags are ok. 44spl and 45LC and ACP are superb. Like SteveNCHunter, I love my Savage WW in 260.
GeauxTide is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 12:27 AM   #40
mdd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Posts: 626
I appreciate all of the helpful replies. I did not in any way post this to be self-congratulatory because I am not pleased about what all of this means. I have carried these rifles since I first started carrying a rifle. I am comfortable with their operation to a level that only comes after years of use. I knew by posting on this site that some would scoff at what I am saying. All I know is that the proof is printed on the targets and the proof tells me to look at other options whether it be training or "gadgets" as some referred to. Are there other facets to be worked on? Always. Range estimation, wind estimation, shooting from various field positions, etc etc etc. None of those, however, address the issue that I posted about originally which is a significant reduction in group sizes printed by a different brand of rifle when compared to my preferred brand. I mentioned signing up for a precision rifle clinic. Unfortunately I do not have the required caliber of rifle for the clinic. I don't own a 308, 300 mag, 338 lapua, or the like. So to take a class, I have to obtain more of the dreaded gadgets. Scope, rings, bases, and rifle will set me back a lot. Is it worth it? I don't know.
__________________
So many coyotes....so little time....
mdd is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 02:13 AM   #41
natman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Posts: 1,429
what to do when your equipment no longer matches your skills?

Get better equipment.
natman is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 04:41 AM   #42
Scottish Highlander
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2013
Posts: 113
Hi MDD,
I personally have a 308 in the Tikka T3 Hunter brand. The recoil you get from a 308 does kick but it's fine for me. It's not to bad at all in my eyes and I am slightly similar to yourself as I shot 12 gauge when I was younger and I'd never buy a 12 bore its always 20 gauge I've owned because 12s kick like mules.

@ 100 yards the rifle was shooting 1 1/4 groups with sako shop bought 123 grain loads which was very frustrating. I reloaded a Nosler 125 grain ballistic tip boat tail load for the rifle and my god it pulled it right in to a 1/4 inch group. 3 shots at target, 2 were in the same hole and 3rd was in the 1/4 inch. That was when I relised it wasn't me it was the bullets and loads I had been using. All I am saying is that from my experience personally factory ammo may not give you the consistency that you are looking for. At least if you are reloading your own ammo then you can rule that one as the problem for the groups being slack.

The other thing is and this isn't directed at you but some people struggle to estimate the range of the shot without pacing it out so a range finder might be a handy tool to get the exact range your shooting and compare that to your ballistics's. As an example I was stalking with a guy last winter and his judgment on distance was terrible. I stalked a Red stag and he said " that stag is at lest 350 yards" and it was by no means that far. Max it was 200 yards out.

Jamie
Scottish Highlander is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 08:51 AM   #43
amflyer
Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2009
Posts: 27
I'm trying not to be curmudgeonly this morning, but why on earth would you be frustrated with 1 1/4" groups out of the box with factory ammo? That's a pretty good group for starters.

Behind me, on the wall, I have a group shot with a Tikka 25-06 that I don't have the capability to measure. It's just one slightly oval hole. It's so small as to be unbelievable...and it is. It's luck. Very good luck, but luck. It's from my hunting loads that probably average 1.5-2.0 inches from my setup. But I like the ballistics and bullet, and it's fine for me. I shoot deer at ranges of less than 300 yards with it. Do I call that a .10" inch rifle? Not with a straight face!

It's been said to death, but accuracy in a rifle is not the only thing to consider, and a stock hunting rifle that shoots 1.25" has nothing wrong with it.
amflyer is offline  
Old April 16, 2013, 10:58 AM   #44
Malamute
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Location: Rocky Mts
Posts: 820
I also like certain brand rifles, and am willing to do some work to get one to shoot better. The factory barrels can be hit or miss so to speak, tho all I've had have been plenty accurate for general hunting use (generally 1 1/4"-1 1/2" with loads they liked). If you want that next step up though, a truly good barrel is money well spent in my opinion. Yes, other guns may shoot better out of the box, but, if you like a certain type, then do a bit of work with it. It isn't simply a cost vs outcome/benefit relationship. If you're like me, you'd be thinking about the other gun while carrying the new one, and wishing the old one would do what you wanted it to. Other makes simply don't interest me for various reasons

You know the basics, and they've been mentioned. Decent bedding, you have a good trigger, have the action trued when getting a barrel installed.

The course has optimal guns, but I'd take it with whatever you have thats close, load the best long range type bullets, and go do it. The 25-06 would lob bullets out there. A 6.5-06 or 260 would do it, with better BC bullet choices, though in your case, that would require another barrel. Barrels can be set up like savages, to be switch capable. They've been done on other makes of guns. I'm having a Ruger 77 tang safety done as a switch barrel. At that point the cost of different barrels are buying the blank and setup machining cost, but no further gunsmithing cost to change calibers or for a new barrel if you manage to wear one out.
__________________
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Malamute is offline  
Old April 17, 2013, 09:02 PM   #45
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 5,456
mdd, are kost of your rifles tang safeties or the newer style? If they're tang safety a Savage will be pretty close in operation. If there the newer style of safety look for an FN PBR and it will be very similar as well. I'm assuming you have both style really since you stated you've been shhoting awhile.
__________________
NRA Life Member
The Truth About Guns
taylorce1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11012 seconds with 9 queries