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Old February 10, 2013, 12:40 AM   #1
btmj
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Advice on shooting prone position

I would like some advice from the experienced shooters here, particularly the older ones who have to deal with aging eyes and less-limber bodies...

I shot prone the other day. It is the first time in about 5 years that I tried to shoot extensively from prone. I got about 15 rounds down range, and I just could not take it any more. My neck and shoulders were so cramped that my accuracy started to suffer badly.

I have always found that prone shooting required me to crank my neck back about as far as it would go. No big deal in my 20s, but a little more uncomfortable in my 30s. Now at 46, I seem to be hitting the wall. I am just not very effective in the prone position anymore. I was skinny as a tent-pole in my 20s, and I have gained about 30 lb since then, but I am good shape for 46. Another problem is I am shooting more powerful rifles now than I was back then, and prone position causes my eye to be closer to the scope. The recoil is causing the scope to come dangerously close to my eyeglasses.

At first I thought my problem might be my eyeglasses, since I need to crank back my neck enough so that I am looking through the eyeglass lens rather than over the top of them... but some experimenting has shown me that even if my eyesight was 20/20, and I could lower my head a bit and look into the upper most left corner of my vision, this would put my skull even closer to the scope, and I would almost certainly get banged.

I went back to my old copy of Cooper's "Art of the Rifle" and reviewed his detailed descriptions of the prone position. I don't seem to be doing anything wrong.

Is this a common problem? If no one else is having this problem, I need to assume I am doing something wrong. Thoughts?

Jim
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Old February 10, 2013, 01:11 AM   #2
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Stretch to increase flexibility. I am 55 and am a martial artist. I cannot impress on you enough the need for staying limber as you age.

Shooting prone requires use of different muscles than you are used to using. Train by getting into position and keeping your head erect for long periods. This will strengthen your neck and improve your shooting.

If you are becoming leery of scope bite, either get a scope with longer eye relief or shoot milder cartridges.
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Old February 10, 2013, 08:38 AM   #3
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Scorch offered some very good advice. I'm no expert, but I'll add a thought or 2:

Adjust your position so when relaxed, your sights are pretty much dead on. Putting the rifle to your shoulder any old way, placing your support hand any old way, and settling into any old position forces you to use your muscles to put the sights where they need to be. It's very tiring, and not particularly stable.

Are you using a sling? Used correctly, they really do a great job of stabilizing your position without using your muscles. There are a number of good youtube vids by competitive rifle shooters on how to properly set up and use a sling.

Finally, maybe consider aperture sights. They're very accurate for target duty. AR15s with A2/A4 uppers also seem to have a pretty high sight axis, and may be easier on the neck.
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Old February 10, 2013, 09:20 AM   #4
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Sounds like your scope is too far back.

Is your right leg pulled up, so you are leaning on your left side?

You are using a sling, correct?

Practice the position as you watch TV, from the floor, head up.

When I shot a lot of prone, I looked forward to getting in position (NRA Highpower matches). It was very relaxing and comfortable.

Good video - would be better with a sling.
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Old February 10, 2013, 09:27 AM   #5
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Quote:
My neck and shoulders were so cramped that my accuracy started to suffer
One of the most neglected parts of the Fundamentals of Marksmanship is "Relaxation".

If you are getting cramped neck and shoulders, you're not relaxed. Age has nothing to do with it. I'm 65 and I have no problems getting a relaxed position.

When you shoot from the bench, you don't (or shouldn't) use your muscels to support the rifle. You rest your elbows on the table. But not the elbows per se, but the soft part of your forearms. Your head is relaxed, your resting it on the stock not using neck muscles to hold the rifle up.

Prone shooting is no different. Your head should be straight, bring the rifle to the head, not the head to the rifle. The head, or cheek is resting on the rifle where you create a "chipmunk" effect.

There are two types of prone shooting. Position shooting or non-supported (excluding the sling) and precision shooting, using a bi-pod or sandbags.

Both are the same in the sense you should be relaxed.

In position or sling, non-supported. Assuming the shooter is right handed, if left handed reverse this. Line up to the target. Your right knee is cocked and the rifle is lined up where if you drew a line from the muzzle it would go straight back to your right leg and foot.

Your left elbow is as close to directly under the rifle as possible. The sling is high upon the left arm, extended to the front sling swivel. The left hand IS NOT holding the rifle up. Thats the slings job. Your left hand is slid between the stock and sling. The hand does not grip the stock, but the stock lightly rest on the palm of the hand.

When getting an natural point of aim, you adjust elevation by sliding the hand toward the front or rear of the stock depending if you want to raise or lower the muzzle.

The butt stock should fit the shoulder at a point it allows the head to remain erect, and the head, or cheek should rest on the stock of the rifle.

You do not get a heavy strong grip with the shooting hand. The rifle should be supported by the sling and shoulder. The shooting hand only grips the pistol grip hard enough to keep your hand from falling from the rifle.

A strong firm grip with the shooting hand will cause you to disturb the rifle when squeezing the trigger. You should be able to drop your shooting hand from the stock to change magazines, load another round or write in your data book, WITHOUT disturbing your natural point of aim.

Set up your gear so you don't disturb you NPA doing the above. Set up your spotting scope so you can see your target by turning the head. You shouldn't have to move any other part of your body to look through the scope.

The left leg should be straight at an angle to the target to allow for a NPA, the right knee should be cocked, and high as comfortable. (In rapid fire, I sometimes get my knee right behind my right elbow to keep the elbow from slipping during recoil.) This method also takes the pressure off the diaphragm (which is important for us older guys getting soft in the mid section}.

I mentioned using the left hand to adjust elevation. You shift your whole body pivoting on the hips or middle to adjust windage. Once you get your NPA you should be able to close your eyes, take a deep breath, let it out, open your eyes to find out you are perfectly lined up with the target. If not, shift your body or move your left hand to adjust, do not mussel the rifle.

Close your eye, breath again, and check your natural point of aim. When you have it. Close your eyes, dry fire, open your eyes to make sure you're still lined up. Adjust accordingly.

This method will allow you to relax and prevent cramping and sore necks. If you cramp or get sore anywhere, you're not relaxed, your muscling something and your shooting will suffer.
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Old February 10, 2013, 09:42 AM   #6
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You have to adjust your rifle so that you are not under excessive strain when shooting prone.

This takes time and takes the proper equipment.

Both of these rifles are Anschutz small bore rifle which are used in small bore prone matches.

This one is an old style of stock from the 80’s. This is a vast improvement over the old non adjustable marksman stocks of the 50’s and middle 60’s. If you notice the cheekpiece is adjustable and the buttplate is adjustable for length.

I have noticed that having the cheekpiece off by just ¼” to 3/8” adversely effects my score.



This is an Anschutz action in a modern Eliseo tube stock. This stock is adjustable up and down, out and in, and you can rotate the buttplate in a circle to adjust for cant. Notice all the cheekpiece and buttplate adjustments.





The guys who have these stocks take a lot of time fidgeting with the things to get repeatable cheek/stock welds and to adjust them for their position. I cannot pick up someone else’s rifle and have the scope in focus, the trigger pull distance is all weird, I am too close to the sights, or too far, hand stop is off, and so is the cheekpiece height.

I am going to suggest that if you want to become an excellent prone shooter try small bore prone with a CMP Kimber 82G. You only get to the stock adjustment part of the game after a year or two of shooting and hitting a plateau with your scores. By then you are sorting out the issues of too tight a sling, just where your elbow should be, why the group moved when you moved the buttplate out on your shoulder, up/down when you moved the buttplate up and down on your shoulder, and why your groups went down and to the left when you hit the trigger too hard. You will see groups move with leg shifts, you will see groups move if you do anything. After seeing enough patterns of inaccuracy you will stop doing that and then you will need a stock you can adjust to your body.
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Old February 10, 2013, 09:56 AM   #7
kraigwy
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Precision Shooting:

I decided to split the two types into different post to keep them from getting too windy.

Precision shooting is a bit different then position shooting. Disputes between the two type shooters are as common as 9mm vs. 45 or AK vs AR feuds.

Both work but work for different style of shooting. Being a High Power and Small Bore Shooter I'm more versed on position shooting where the sling is used un-supported but I'll take a stab at precision shooting in the prone position.

Again, I can't stress enough about being relaxed.

In precision prone, the body is straight behind the rifle, If one was to draw a line from the barrel it should extend down the back bone to the center of the butt.

The shoulders should be intersect the rifle at right angles. If you were to lay out the shooting mat, and draw a line down the middle, (head to toe), that's where the body should lay. Now if you were to draw a line forming a cross on the mat, that is where your shoulder and elbows go.

In precision, you don't hold the rifle at all, the front is resting on bi-pod or sandbag. The butt rest on the rear bag. Again the right hand holds the pistol grip only firm enough to support the hand on the stock so as not to disturb the NPA when squeezing the trigger.

Again the head is relaxed and resting on the butt of the rifle.

I can't stress enough that you need to be straight behind the rifle. To the point if there is any muzzle jump to the left or right upon firing, you're not straight. You shooting hand should be able to come away from the gun to change magazines, reload the rifle, write in your data book, without disturbing your natural point of aim.

Again the head needs to remain straight, bring the rifle to the head, not the head to the rifle.

This is true in any position, standing, prone, kneeling, or setting. Its also true with pistols and revolvers.

Remember, RELAX. There is no reason, regardless of age, one could get cramped up in prone or any other position.

Make sure all your shooting equipment is in reach so you don't have to disturb your position to do any of the activities you do while shooting.

I'm basically a lazy person. I don't want to use my muscles any more then I have to so I don't, therefore I don't get cramped or sore while shooting.

I realize its hard to understand what I'm trying to put forward from just reading (especially reading what I write). A good coach in invaluable.

I'd highly recommend attending a CMP GSM Clinic taught by Master Instructors regardless of which style of shooting you choose. Explain to the instructor any problems you may have and he'll work out a position that works for you. No two people are built the same, each position need to be adjusted to the individual shooter, this is where a good coach comes in.
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Old February 10, 2013, 11:35 AM   #8
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Thanks for all the great advice... Very helpful.

To answer some basic questions: Yes I use a sling. Yes I shoot right handed, and I am right eye dominant. The rifles in question are not dedicated target rifles, but a pair of bolt sporters used for hunting. My 243 is shown attached.

I positioned my scope based on what seemed natural when shooting off-hand, and this same scope position seems to work well from bench, sitting, and kneeling. But perhaps it should be more forward?

Kraig, I think I am beginning to understand that I have been shooting prone position incorrectly my whole life. I have always been as accurate from a sitting position as from prone, sometimes even more so. And my prone shooting is not as good as when I shoot from a bipod or sandbag at a bench. Isn't it true that most people shoot prone better than sitting, and about as good as from a bipod?

If I get into position, and then I relax, several things happen. (1) the sideways pull of the sling on the bottom of the fore-stock rotates the rifle about the barrel axis, so now the reticle is not horizontal, but canted about 10 to 15 degrees (obviously not good). (2) If I relax, my head falls forward and takes my eye away from the scope.

This tells me a couple of things (1) I am using the muscle power of my right hand to hold the rifle level and uncanted (2) I am using muscle power to hold my head up and to maintain a cheek weld. So obviously I need to change something.

I know this kind of thing is hard to diagnose over the internet, but any additional thoughts would be appreciated.
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Old February 10, 2013, 11:47 AM   #9
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Quote:
(1) the sideways pull of the sling on the bottom of the fore-stock rotates the rifle about the barrel axis, so now the reticle is not horizontal, but canted about 10 to 15 degrees (obviously not good).
Get your elbow directly under the rifle, balanced, where if you relax it tries to fall forward pulling on the sling. It shouldn't want to fall left or right.

Quote:
(2) If I relax, my head falls forward and takes my eye away from the scope.
Keep the head straight. Bring the rifle to the head. You should be able to rest your head (cheek) on the stock so that your eye is lined up with the sights. If you relax your head, nothing should change.
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Old February 10, 2013, 02:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Isn't it true that most people shoot prone better than sitting, and about as good as from a bipod?
Prone with a sling is more stable than sitting or standing with a sling.

Bipods changed the Long Range F class shooter targets. Originally they were using the same 2 MOA target as the sling shooters. But shooting off a bipod and bags is far more stable than sling shooting. So now F Class used a 1/2 MOA target and yet, even with that tiny target, the current F Class National Record is 200-17X , if that has not been broken yet.
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Old February 11, 2013, 09:12 AM   #11
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I shot a lot of prone starting at age 10 in the Cub Scouts, later as part of a competition rifle team and shortly after in the Army. GET COMFORTABLE! The idea is to be supported by the earth, not rigid. Get elbow bone contact with the ground, get your feet apart and ankles flat on the deck, and your right knee bent. Arrange your body at an angle to the target!

If you are working hard to hold this position, it's not right.

Get comfortable, get limber, get more practice - you will be fine.


(FWIW, I have been shooting rifle for 55 years and I'm NOT a fan of Cooper...)


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Old April 6, 2013, 11:05 PM   #12
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Since I got some good advice in this thread, I wanted to let folks know that I have made some improvements.

First thing, I got prescription shooting glasses that allow my head to be positioned properly. My old glasses had small lenses, and I ended up looking over the top of the lens while shooting prone, unless I cranked my neck into an uncomfortable/unnatural position. New glasses solved that problem.

Second thing, I realized my elbows were too splayed out, and I needed to get them closer together .

Third thing, I realized I could not effectively shoot prone if I had just eaten two eggs, 4 pieces of bacon, two pancakes, fried potatoes, a pear, an orange, 3 prunes, and a half a pot of coffee... this should have been obvious, but I have a habit of eating a large breakfast on Saturdays and skipping lunch... but prone shooting is best done with an empty stomach and bladder...

Thanks again to all... my scores have greatly improved.

Jim.
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Old April 7, 2013, 12:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
I realized I could not effectively shoot prone if I had just eaten two eggs, 4 pieces of bacon, two pancakes, fried potatoes, a pear, an orange, 3 prunes, and a half a pot of coffee.
LMAO
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Old April 8, 2013, 08:49 AM   #14
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A good shooting mat with a piece of high density foam under it helps my aged body. Prescription glasses for shooting only, really helped me when in the prone position.
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Old April 10, 2013, 10:20 AM   #15
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It's been my observations watching a few hundred folks learning how to shoot service semiauto and bolt actions rifles accurately, they all make the same error from the get-go. And few ever stop doing it. It's called "finger flicking."

As soon as their nervous system senses the trigger sear release the firing pin, they "flick" their trigger finger forward. That makes the rifle's muzzle jump off the place it pointed at when the sear released the firing pin. Depending on how fast, hard and direction of flick, the muzzle axis moves some amount in some direction. I think it's based on ones safety issue from not wanting to put any pressure on the trigger in fear of shooting another round too soon. . .or just not wanting any pressure from the trigger finger on the trigger after they've fired the shot.

Cure?

Simple.

Keep the trigger finger back against its stop until the rifle's stopped moving from recoil. Only takes a second. This is called "follow through." Harder trigger pulls require a more firm grip on the rifle's pistol grip to master this simple exercise. But it can be done with even a 4.5-pound M1 or M14 trigger.

Good training tool is to take a handgun with a post front sight with a flat top. Its trigger pull needs to be at least 2 pounds. Put an empty .22 rimfire case atop that front sight, cock the handgun with an empty chamber, then hold it still with the case atop the post front sight. Dry fire the handgun without the case falling off the front sight. To me, it's a waste of time to do any more training until one can do this. . .30 times in a row. Afte they've mastered trigger control, then they can move on to live ammo. If one can't hold the rifle still while the bullet's going down and out the barrel, why do any training with live ammo?

Regarding position, nobody winning matches or setting records has their body and backbone parallel to the rifle barrel in prone. They've all got an angle of 15 to 40 or so degrees depending on what workes best for them.
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Old April 10, 2013, 10:11 PM   #16
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Check the differences between these to styles:

http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/20...pic-prone.html

http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/20...ary-prone.html

My 45 yo body much prefers olympic.
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Old April 11, 2013, 06:58 AM   #17
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Where the front elbow rests on the ground depends on three things; whether or not a sling's used, the shooter's body shape and size and the stock's shape and size. Wherever the elbow is on the ground that enables the smallest holding area is right. For some folks it will be under the stock's fore end. For others, it'll be a little to one side; the lower arm angle may be anywhere between 0 and 20 degrees.

There are no hard and fast rules for the prone position except one; only your bones support the rifle; no tensed muscles at all 'cause they are constantly wiggled by blood pressure and are minimized when not strained. Whatever works is best. Without actually seeing someone in prone, I cannot suggest anything to help. But there are a few things to remember.

Changing the position from shot to shot of the front elbow, butt placement in shoulder, hand position under the fore end, cheek weld on the stock, trigger hand's grip on the pistol grip, will change point of bullet impact for a given sight setting.

Best advice without seeing someone is for them to get into prone then aim at something with a scope sighted rifle and relax; totally and completely relax. Take three deep breaths, let out half of the last one and totally relax. No muscle support of the rifle. Note the size of the area the scope reticule moves around in. After 15 to 20 seconds, start over breathing again. Move all parts of your body a little bit then repeat this exercise. Some position details will enable a smaller holding area. Keep at it until you can hold inside a 1 MOA area. Then get out of it and go back into it and start over. Learn to go back into the same position each time.

Buy Nancy Tompkins' latest book "Prone and Long Range Rifle Shooting" then read, learn, do, practice then perfect what she says. She and her husband along with their two daughters have probably won more matches and set more records shooting prone than any other group of four people on this planet.

www.rifleshootingbynancy.com
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Old April 12, 2013, 11:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Where the front elbow rests on the ground depends on three things; whether or not a sling's used
That is really interesting you mention that Bart.... as a Kid, I never used a sling for prone shooting... but to improve my technique, I have been trying to use a sling for the last couple of months. Well, Hell, I gave up and went back to what has always worked for me... No Sling !!!
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Old April 13, 2013, 08:37 AM   #19
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btmj, no sling may well work better than an improperly used sling. There's more to using a sling that most folks realize.

Used properly, a sling enables better holding and your point of aim moves around in a smaller area on target. Without it or if used incorrectly, the hold area is always much larger.

Three rules for proper sling use:

* the front hand must be all the way forward to a stop on the stock; no muscles holding it in place further back under the fore end. The front hand must not grip the forend but remain relaxed. If an hand stop's not used, such as on a service rifle or hunting rifle, then the front hand has to be all the way forward against the swivel. Some folks have used detachable swivels in several mounts spaced an inch or two apart in hunting rifle fore ends. Match rifles need a rail with an adjustable hand stop but the sling's attached to the forend at only one place well forward or on the handstop.

* slings must be positioned on the holding arm such that pulse beat in the muscles do not bounce the rifle around or at least to a minimum. Put the sling below or above the bicep muscle or pad it to dampen the pulse beat effect.

* sling tension must be such that with the butt placed in the shoulder and the cheek resting firmly on the stock comb, no use of muscles whatsoever is needed to have the aiming eye aligned with the sights and the natural point of aim right on target.
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Old April 13, 2013, 11:39 AM   #20
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I know I'm gonna go against some popular belief here but shooting slings are over rated and over discussed. Can a sling aid some? Sure. Does it make wholesale difference and turn a fair shooter into a great shooter? Not in my experience. They're not a replacement for good form and definitely not on par with a solid rest or a bipod. Way to much emphasis put on em.

(BTW, they're pointless shooting standing)
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Old April 13, 2013, 12:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
They're not a replacement for good form and definitely not on par with a solid rest or a bipod. Way to much emphasis put on em.
I wouldn't bet on that. A good sling position is rock solid, it allows the rifle to fall back into position or your natural point of aim much better the shooting from the bipod or rest. You certainly don't get the "bipod hop".

I shoot better from the setting position w/sling then prone, but I shoot both much better then from a rest or bipod.

To say they aren't on par tells me somebody doesn't really know how to use a sling properly.

Gonna have a hard time convincing this guy that he puts too muc emphasis on the sling.

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Old April 13, 2013, 02:39 PM   #22
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Mister Killkenny, I agree. Bipods and rests are better than slings when properly used by folks who know how to.

But niether's allowed in most rifle competitive disciplines with shoulder fired rifles. Nor are they typically carried by soldiers afield. A few hunters use bipods or will roll up a jacket to use as a rest.

That aside, there are folks who shoot match rifles slung up in prone that out perform most folks shooting the same rifle from a bench.
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