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Old April 12, 2013, 03:57 PM   #26
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While I personally believe that violence is a multi-factorial problem, I cannot help but reflect that the same society that considers cock fighting, bull fighting, dog fighting, and the excesses of the Roman coliseum to be barbaric, sees slasher movies, violent video games, and graphic violence in films and television as mere entertainment. The simple truth is that the healthy human form is more heavily censored than its wanton destruction.
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Old April 12, 2013, 06:25 PM   #27
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I'll throw something in to help people get a feel for how many people play violent video games, but that there is also a distinction in types of violent games.

Quote:
Just how big will the release of Grand Theft Auto IV be? Well, according to some sources, pre-sales may push the first week numbers of GTA IV above the six million copies mark. That would be around $400 million dollars in just five days.

Quote:
Publisher Electronic Arts sold more than 12 million copies of its soccer sim FIFA 13. Sales of the latest FIFA game and more than $100 million in digital revenue from the title.
Quote:
Black Ops 2 pre-orders have outsold the original Black Ops pre-order numbers at the rate of 3 to 1 within its first 24 hours of availability. This follows up the original Black Ops record setting numbers back in 2010 that still holds the record for most units sold at 13.7 million in the United States alone.
Now I guess if someone is going to play a violent game, perhaps putting yourself into the shoes of a Navy SEAL is better then those of a Psychotic murder of old ladies and prostitutes, but still. I'll let the numbers illustrate whatever it is they illustrate.
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Old April 12, 2013, 07:03 PM   #28
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I wouldn't have a problem allowing a 1 year old to be around (so long as they have hearing protection) when firing any kind of gun you can think of.

Not sure where someone thinks a person should be afraid of letting their young child be around guns like they would graphic violence.

The argument of protecting media violence from regulation is in simile to a one person seeing a rock on the ground and stating that such is there, while another claims it doesn't exist. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the effect of violent images on peoples behavior is undeniable. It brings more immorality out of people than it brings morality.

I however think a person should be free to expose themselves to whatever they want. This society will only get worse unless people start doing some hard thinking and pull their heads out of whatever trash bin they have it stuck in.

Mass killings are not the problem, they are the symptom.

Guns have been around for well over half a mellenium. However we have only really seen some of the most hideous individually accomplished mass murders in the last 100 years. motion picture entertainment has been around for the same length of time.

Coincidence? I say no. And a surgeon general once who I bet had more credentials to his name than anyone in this forum agreed during the 70s too.

That has been 40 years ago. I wonder what he would think of todays entertainment if he found 70s entertainment disturbing.
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Old April 12, 2013, 07:36 PM   #29
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Video games and shootings...

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Originally Posted by Beentown71 View Post
I think we all know a "normal" person that plays video games are not going to become a mass murderer. Taking arguments to extremes and saying because the majority of gamers don't become mass murderers it then implies that these games have no effect is myopic.
And saying games do have an effect with no neutral, properly conducted study saying so is nothing but speculation.
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Old April 12, 2013, 07:42 PM   #30
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There is a documentary out there; it is on You Tube and about 95 minutes long
The War on Kids: The Definitive Documentary on the Failure of the Public Education System

If you watch this, you will see how the drugging of kids with Ritalin and similar drugs has been shown to be present or part of the history of EVERY kid involved in mass shootings and major incidents.

It isn't the video games, it is the failure of the education system resulting in the use of psychotropic drugs that have caused a lot of what we are dealing with today
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Old April 12, 2013, 10:31 PM   #31
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Video games are not the problem. Plenty of nations have even more video games then America without all the shootings, and I'd be willing to be that most war torn third world countries don't have a lot of video games.
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Old April 13, 2013, 02:40 AM   #32
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I'm a young guy, also a gamer, and even though this might not be the ideal forum for the statement I'm about to make, I hope its intent will be well received.

I'm not well versed in the shooting community yet, but part of what seems to keep shooting alive and fun is the culture that exists around it. The passing down of skills and knowledge from father to son, sharing memories and love of a sport and a pastime. In many ways that culture is the key to why a love of and respect for firearms continues to be something that a newcomer such as myself can take up. Many countries don't offer their young people that opportunity any more.

Similarly, I identify myself as a gamer. We gamers have forums that we frequent, review sites that keep us apprised of the newest products and accessories for our chosen hobby, and we even have group meetings where we share our love of games (violent or otherwise, and there's a LOT of otherwise) with each other and play them. Gaming, however, is a young pastime. We're just now entering our first real generation, in which fathers and mothers who love games are getting the chance to pass that love down to their children.

However, fingers are being pointed, lines are being drawn, and even the NRA is trying to suggest that my hobby, my pastime, should be limited before it's even had a chance to properly bloom. Our sub-culture as gamers, our identity, is under threat of being hobbled and stagnated, and there's no way to know where such limiting measures (if enacted) could stop. Australia, in a fashion very similar to how that country seem to handle firearms, already has a ratings board that censors and limits what games are even allowed in to the country. Many games have to be changed from their original form, watered down, and bastardized just to make it through their censors board. Some games don't even make it in at all. Those games cannot be imported, legally downloaded, or played in any fashion. There have been several statements by members of US legislation suggesting a similar board since the release of Doom and similar games in the early 1990s. This is horrifying to people who enjoy games.

My fundamental point is this. Gamers and firearms lovers are two cultures that have a large amount of overlap. Similarly both our hobbies, and our opportunity to share and enjoy those hobbies how we wish to, are under threat from unnecessary measures that threaten to take away what we love for no forseeable, legitimate gain. If you love your guns, please take some time and think about your reaction to "violent" video games (and sift the "facts") before you buy in to a rhetorical angle and end up negligently endangering someone else's sub-culture and beloved hobby.
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Old April 13, 2013, 04:29 AM   #33
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^ QFT. When I hear people talking about "these murder simulator video games" i hear it the exact same way I hear Diane Feinstein talking about "magazine clips". It's ignorance and blame-shift.
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Old April 13, 2013, 09:49 AM   #34
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the effect of violent images on peoples behavior is undeniable.
This is what I have a problem with. Where is your proof that it's "undeniable?" That is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. Yet all you can provide is your opinion on it. That is not evidence, let alone proof.

This is the EXACT same argument Al Gore made about the human influence of Global Warming. Although I'm not arguing for or against this particular issue, he said that Human Caused Global Warming is undeniable, without showing much proof, and while hundreds of scientists were questioning this claim, with evidence of their own. And of course, he would refuse to debate any of these scientists because he believed his opinion was undeniable.

The problem is, it is YOUR opinion that violent images affect people's behavior. The actual science of it is inconclusive. If you are going to make the claim that your side of a controversial argument is "undeniable" you must be willing to provide PROOF (not just some evidence, not just a single study that seems to indicate, etc) of it. If you cannot do it, then it is simply your belief.
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Old April 13, 2013, 10:21 AM   #35
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because it can be observed easily by any person. You can run your own experiments of observation on yourself and determine that playing a first person shooter alters your thinking before and after game play.

It is about like a debate of determining if there is really a rock in front of you or that it is simply a 3d image and you are also a 3d image created by a hidden software program that is the universe we know.

In my opinion a rock is a rock.

But the industry cannot be regulated simply because the media lobby is far more powerful than the NRA. They can make claims of a violation of freedom of expression.

My argument against the violent media is that it incites violence. I grew up during the era when bugs bunny and the lone ranger turned into the chainsaw massacre and the Dawn of the Dead.

I gave a link in an earlier thread showing the research linking violent video games to violent behavior which of course in a debate will be discounted by the opposing side. However I provided a source but those who criticized the source never provided one of their own.

This is the report by the than surgeon general Jesse Seinfield

http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps/access/NNBCGX.pdf

A short biography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Leonard_Steinfeld
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Old April 13, 2013, 10:38 AM   #36
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Quote:
because it can be observed easily by any person.
Uhh, no it can't. I'm going to go out on a limb and say I know more (by probably a large margin) people who play violent video games. They're all normal, hard working people. None have any sort of violent tendencies. If this is what you mean by "observe" then I certainly have not observed it.

By the way, this is the same rebuttle that Al Gore used..."look, the temp is rising, everyone can see that!"

Quote:
I grew up during the era when bugs bunny and the lone ranger turned into the chainsaw massacre and the Dawn of the Dead.
Strange then, how in today's society, some Bugs Bunny type cartoons are considered too violent. Some you won't even see aired anymore, and when they are on the air, it's usually during times of the day when kids aren't watching cartoons.

Once again, you're taking your opinions and biases and placing blame. Saying that it can be "observed." You have yet to show me where violent media incites violence. It can effect the type and means of violence, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO CASUAL LINK between violent video games and acts of violence. As a matter of fact, in the US, violent crime has been steadily decreasing since the late 80's...coinciding with the proliferation of violent video games, and the increase of violence in the media.

I wouldn't ever say that one causes the other, without proof, but it's certainly an interesting correlation.

Show me the proof! Quit spouting an opinion as fact.
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Old April 13, 2013, 11:25 AM   #37
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the FPS game makes people crazy and violent is very similar to the CCW or area's with lots of guns makes it more dangerous argument.

they say that violent videogames make people more aggressive and prone to act out in violence? one of the quotes above said that Call of Duty Black Ops 2 sold 13.2 million copies in the first week of sales? why arent there 13.2 million kids out there blowing up cars and gunning people down in the streets? same reason people make it out alive of a room filled with thousands of guns and 10's of thousands of rounds of ammunition in gunshows!

humans are generally reasonable animals, they know if they walk out into the street with their AR and start making swiss cheese cars they are probably either going to get killed by the police or spend the rest of their life in jail. same thing if they walk into a gunshow and try to rob a dealer.....uuhhhhh, well we all know everyone in the room can easily neutralize that threat with something right next to them on the table.

my point being: dont infringe on other peoples rights just because you "think" what they are doing on there own free time can be "dangerous" and "cause serious damage"....because that is exactly what the anti gun people are doing to us.

Why do you NEED a AR-15?
why do you NEED a game where you shoot machine guns at people?
why do you NEED a car taht goes 150 mph?
why do you NEED a truck thats lifted and oversized tires for a daily commute?
why do you NEED a Iphone?
why do you NEED a Starbucks coffee every morning?

BECAUSE ITS MY RIGHTS AND FREEDOM THAT ALLOW ME TO!(sound familiar?)
so stop trying to take em away
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Old April 13, 2013, 11:43 AM   #38
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Re: Video games and shootings...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mausermolt View Post
the FPS game makes people crazy and violent is very similar to the CCW or area's with lots of guns makes it more dangerous argument.

they say that violent videogames make people more aggressive and prone to act out in violence? one of the quotes above said that Call of Duty Black Ops 2 sold 13.2 million copies in the first week of sales? why arent there 13.2 million kids out there blowing up cars and gunning people down in the streets? same reason people make it out alive of a room filled with thousands of guns and 10's of thousands of rounds of ammunition in gunshows!

humans are generally reasonable animals, they know if they walk out into the street with their AR and start making swiss cheese cars they are probably either going to get killed by the police or spend the rest of their life in jail. same thing if they walk into a gunshow and try to rob a dealer.....uuhhhhh, well we all know everyone in the room can easily neutralize that threat with something right next to them on the table.

my point being: dont infringe on other peoples rights just because you "think" what they are doing on there own free time can be "dangerous" and "cause serious damage"....because that is exactly what the anti gun people are doing to us.

Why do you NEED a AR-15?
why do you NEED a game where you shoot machine guns at people?
why do you NEED a car taht goes 150 mph?
why do you NEED a truck thats lifted and oversized tires for a daily commute?
why do you NEED a Iphone?
why do you NEED a Starbucks coffee every morning?

BECAUSE ITS MY RIGHTS AND FREEDOM THAT ALLOW ME TO!(sound familiar?)
so stop trying to take em away
I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that FPS games should be banned. That doesn't mean that they don't have an effect on an already altered mind. CCW vs violent video games are nowhere near the same argument.
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Old April 13, 2013, 11:50 AM   #39
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A year or so ago I saw a TV program re such video games.
There was one kid, 8 years old, who was asked why he liked those games. His reply was, "Because I get to kill people."

There is a small percentage of people and kids who become desensitized to violence and killing as a result of such games bringing such things to mind, and especially when combined with movies, and the particular enviornment in which they grow up.
There are those who kill who would not without the violence in games, movies, TV combined with their environment.

I don't care if some here played them and did not do violence. Most won't, but I do not need a PhD study to make me KNOW from many years of observation that such things do impact on the think of some.

In my youth I/we never thought of such things, or killing our classmates or teachers. We had never been exposed to such thinking. How different it is now, and video games do have an impact.

Jerry
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Old April 13, 2013, 11:56 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryM
In my youth I/we never thought of such things, or killing our classmates or teachers. We had never been exposed to such thinking. How different it is now, and video games do have an impact.
Except that isn't true. School shootings were a thing long, long before games became widely popular, even remotely realistic, or even existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

A small number of examples from that link:

The mid to late 1970s is considered the second most violent period in U.S. school history with a series of school shootings,

December 30, 1974: Olean, New York, Regents scholar Anthony Barbaro, 17, armed with a rifle and shotgun, kills three adults and wounds 11 others at his high school, which was closed for the Christmas holiday. Barbaro was reportedly a loner who kept a diary describing several "battle plans" for his attack on the school.

February 2, 1971: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Teacher Samson L. Freedman, 56, was shot to death as he left Morris E. Leeds School, by Kevin Simmons, 14. Freedman had suspended Simmons earlier in the day for cursing in the hallway.

For reference, the video game on store shelves in 1975 was Pong.

Or even earlier:

September 24, 1937: Toledo, Ohio, 12-year-old Robert Snyder shot and wounded his principal, June Mapes, in her office at Arlington public school when she declined his request to call a classmate. He then fled the school grounds and shot and wounded himself

May 4, 1956: Prince George's County, Maryland, 15-year-old student Billy Prevatte fatally shot one teacher and injured two others at Maryland Park Junior High School after he had been reprimanded from the school

Or waaaay earlier:

June 12, 1887: Cleveland, Tennessee, Will Guess went to the school and fatally shot Miss Irene Fann, his little sister's teacher, for whipping her the day before
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Old April 13, 2013, 12:05 PM   #41
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Yes it is true. Sure there were exceptions, but in my life I never heard of a child shooting his classmates or teachers until recently. In fact we could take guns to school, and leave them with the principal until after school when we would go hunting.

I am not talking about the '70s, but the 40s and 50s. To say that Mass shootings were happening then is pure nonsense. A couple of exceptions do not prove your case.
They are fairly common now, and the desensitizing of violence is largely responsible. Video games are significant contributors to it.

Jerry
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Old April 13, 2013, 12:18 PM   #42
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None of the above examples are mass murders except one. They were all individual revenge killings, that is the difference.

No matter how you try to slice it there are MANY more mass murders now than before. Many factors come to play IMO but ultra violent video games played constantly by an altered mind surely isn't a good recipe.
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Old April 13, 2013, 12:28 PM   #43
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She isn't old enough to realize there's a difference between real life and what she sees on TV.
Likewise, a mass murderer seems to have an altered perception of reality, can't differentiate between real life and what they see in movies/TV, or has developed an innate numbness to human/animal suffering.

No one is saying that violent video games cause violence in everyone, or are the sole cause of violence in demented people. What I am saying is that it seems to be one of a number of factors common to those who go on murder sprees where the only goal is to see how many people they can kill. For kicks or glory. It doesn't take a lot of psychoanalysis to observe this common link.

The fact that one gamer in a prior post admitted that he uses video games to relieve stress and take out his violent aggressions on fictitious characters after a bad day seems to me to further confirm some link between mental aggression and video games.

But, it's not just violent games. In my opinion, it's a person with some predisposition toward low or no empathy for others coupled with obsession(s), drugs, poor parenting, delusional thought and video gaming. Its sort of like a trick lock that requires 6 hidden steps performed in a very precise manner and sequence necessary to open it. You could have the key, insert the key, performed 5 out of the 6 steps, but no matter how many times you insert the key and turn it, the lock won't open. Nothing happens without the missing step.

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Old April 13, 2013, 12:42 PM   #44
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Video games and shootings...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
Yes it is true. Sure there were exceptions, but in my life I never heard of a child shooting his classmates or teachers until recently. In fact we could take guns to school, and leave them with the principal until after school when we would go hunting.

I am not talking about the '70s, but the 40s and 50s. To say that Mass shootings were happening then is pure nonsense. A couple of exceptions do not prove your case.
They are fairly common now, and the desensitizing of violence is largely responsible. Video games are significant contributors to it.

Jerry
The statements you are making about the link between violence and games are not supported by research. No neutral study has been able to establish a link, and there have been hundreds that tried. It's not correct to say something is true because it intuitively feels obvious. Frequently the opposite conclusion ends up being true. It's the same logic as anti-gun people saying guns are linked to violence because the link seems intuitively obvious, but in fact the link isn't there. You can't say video games are "significant contributors" to desensitization of violence when it hasn't been proven that they are contributors at all despite the best efforts of agenda-driven researchers.

As a lifelong gunner and lifelong video gamer, the arguments against games and guns sound remarkably similar to me - based on personal anecdotal experience and individual perspective but not based in fact.
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Old April 13, 2013, 01:01 PM   #45
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Quote:
I don't remember there being any mass random shootings in the '60's, '70's, 80's or hearing about any going further back in time. It wasn't until the mid '90's that these events (as rare as they are) started happening. That's not decades ago, just about 17 years ago. So, what has changed?
just because you don't remember doesn't mean they didn't happen. they absolutely did. there were more mass shootings in the the 80's than there have been since the year 2000. there were mass shootings in the 20's. they are actually in decline right now, with the 80's and 90's being the two decades with the most. video games are more realistic than ever. what's changed you ask? the media. you don't remember because there wasn't a constant 24 hour news cycle back then but they were happening

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Old April 13, 2013, 01:09 PM   #46
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I do not need any studies. I lived through those periods. I do know the mindset of kids when I was a kid, and adults when I became an adult.

I know that until a thought is put into your head you do not think of it. However, when it is put there over and over and over again it does desensitize one to such things. If you watch **** over and over and see thing that you would never have even dreamed of, then there are those who want to try them. Until they were put into one's thoughts there was no possibility of them happening.

People do influence the thinking of others, and so it is with violence and essentially all things.

Anyway, having turned 80 last year, and lived through a fair amount of this nation's history I am capable of logically making some of those types of determinations. The argument that no credible study, blah blah cuts no ice with me. I suspect there have been credible studies that show some link between what people watch and play and their behavior, including murder.

I am going to leave it there, and each can think as he will.

Regards,
Jerry
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Old April 13, 2013, 01:14 PM   #47
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well you're free to think as you please but the evidence doesn't show a link. mass shootings are on the decline, plain and simple. they've been happening since the early 1900's and there were more in the 80's than there are now as i said. as gun owners we can't simply try and find something else to blame other than guns because we know guns aren't the problem. neither are video games. ever see doom? it's pretty unrealistic looking to say the least. why were mass shootings more common in the 80's? history is history. no amount of debate can change that. super mario wasn't causing mass shootings in the 80's, so what was?
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Old April 13, 2013, 01:23 PM   #48
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another interesting fact to chew on for a moment. there were more mass killings in the 20's than there are today. they peaked in 1929.
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Old April 13, 2013, 01:27 PM   #49
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All of you are focusing on the moral aspect of this.
Full disclosure, my sons were not allowed to play these games, I found the act of shooting a realistic human to be something I didn't want my children to get used to. That being said that's my call, and I don't have impose my ideas on you.

The aspect of this you have all neglected, and does need to be addressed is this, this was simulator time for these mass murderers. Just like any Pilot sharpens his skills in a simulator to get better at what he does, these kids spent hours honing their skills on these games.
All of you who have spent hours on these games, can you say with straight face that you are not better prepared for a combat situation than if you had never played these games? No, they are not completely realistic, they might teach you some bad habits, etc. But, you are more capable in these situations than you would be without them.
What if you were a sick, obsessed, individual? Couldn't you use these games to try out different strategies, learn to be a more effective attacker? Keep in mind, if you are any better at these games than when you started you have already proved this point.
I've played various combat piloting games for years. I have a number of friends who are pilots that have played these games against me who assure me that I have a huge chunk of the skills needed for not just a pilots license but to be a pretty good pilot (they tell me there is a huge gulf between these two skill sets).
I think that there is no way you can argue that these kids weren't more capable because of their simulator time.

Do I think they need to be banned? No. I think something different needs to happen.
If you are a parent of a child who is struggling badly you have to make a decision about whether these games are a good idea for your kid. I think you should be held legally responsible for that choice. If your kid uses this knowledge to harm my kid, without any action to fight against the problem from your side, then you share responsibility for that action. I'd want strong enough penalties to induce fear in the parents.

I've had a child who was a serious problem as a teen. Until we learned that we were fighting a genetic mental illness we were stumped on how to fix it. We fought every day against the behavior tooth and nail. It was a losing battle most days. Sometimes the problems were stronger than the solutions. My child would have played one these games over my dead body. I'm not talking about a parent who is obviously trying to do their best but it isn't enough, I'm talking about the one who just doesn't care.
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Old April 13, 2013, 01:39 PM   #50
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Join Date: March 8, 2013
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i simply do not believe call of duty prepares anyone for actual combat anymore than playing cabela's hunting games prepares them for hunting deer. anyone going into either situation based on a game would be sadly under prepared. a flight simulator is entirely different than a first person shooter. there aren't multiple gauges and altitudes and all of that to worry about when playing call of duty. to say that parents should be given a penalty for allowing a kid to play a game would be suggesting a whole lot of other things. how about if they allow tem to watch violent cartoons? read certain books? movies? that would be an awfully slippery slope. these things were happening lng befor here were any realistic video games whatsoever
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