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Old March 19, 2013, 01:52 AM   #26
dakota.potts
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I am looking at the CZ 75 series so I would like to understand the difference.

If it's got a safety I would load it, chamber a round, and then have the option to have it on safe or safety off but a round chambered either way?

With the decocker, I would load it, chamber a round, and then... the decocker would decock the hammer making the first shot a double action pull instead of single? Or does it prevent it from firing in any way? Can someone explain this for me a little bit better?
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Old March 19, 2013, 02:10 AM   #27
volkstrm
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OK Ted1a, I think you may be talking with the right guy on this. I am a big CZ guy I have six(6) models of them. I have some with the safety & some with the decocker. The models with the safety the safety can only be use if the hammer is cocked all the way back.(cocked & locked). I myself find this useless & don't like it at all. My preference is for the decocker all the way. Like on my p01,CZ,75BD & sp01 tactical. CZ'S like the CZ,75compact only come with a safety. Having a decocker is one of the reasons I like Sig Sauer also. IMO a decocker is a safer way to carry & use a gun. Its also a good way to get to learn the DA/SA trigger pull of the gun. Just keep decocking the gun every few shot's so you get the feel of the different pull from DA to SA. Thats how I train & I love the DA/SA trigger pull. Well that is my opinion on the decocker & the CZ,75BD is the one I shoot the most. If you get it you will love it. Also if you do get it you may want to call up CZ & order a set of rubber grips for it. They are the same as the stock plastic grips only rubber. You get a much better grip from them.
P.S. If you have any more Questions on the CZ'S just E-mail me/or post. I will be glad to help.
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Old March 19, 2013, 08:48 AM   #28
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota.potts
If it's got a safety I would load it, chamber a round, and then have the option to have it on safe or safety off but a round chambered either way?
Yes. When engaged, the safety disconnects the trigger, preventing the hammer from falling.*

However, loading a traditional DA/SA or single-action pistol also cocks the hammer, and it is generally considered unsafe to carry a pistol in so-called "Condition 0"- hammer cocked, round in the chamber, safety off. Due to the short and light single-action trigger pull, this can result in an accidental discharge if something brushes against the trigger, particularly during holstering. Most modern shooters favor carrying a traditional single-action pistol in "Condition 1"- hammer cocked, round in the chamber, safety on.

Compared to most other modern DA/SA pistols, the CZ 75B is unusual because it does not incorporate a decocker, thereby allowing traditional Condition 1 carry, and it also has a half-cock notch, which allows a slightly shortened double-action pull. Some shooters like these features. (This includes me; I own a Beretta 84BB, one of the few other modern DA/SA pistols that works this way.) The main downside is that decocking must be done manually- with extreme caution! The other downsides are that the pistol is more complex to use than most other DA/SA designs, and there is a risk that the shooter may inadvertently forget to disengage the safety at the worst possible moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota.potts
With the decocker, I would load it, chamber a round, and then... the decocker would decock the hammer making the first shot a double action pull instead of single? Or does it prevent it from firing in any way?
The decocker safely drops the hammer and does nothing else. It does not prevent the pistol from firing. Its sole function is to allow the shooter to more safely revert to double-action mode. The upside is that accidentally leaving the safety engaged is impossible. The downside is that there is no way to positively disable the pistol from firing without unloading it, although some shooters will argue that this is actually an upside, because unloading is really the only 100% surefire way to prevent a pistol from firing under any circumstances, and forcing the shooter to do this prevents him/her from being lulled into unsafe habits.

As GM1967 mentioned earlier, many DA/SA pistols incorporate a decocker/safety, which performs both functions simultaneously. The upside is that this is arguably the most safe design, as it allows foolproof decocking and allows the shooter to disable the trigger, while still allowing safe double-action safety-off carry in most cases.* The downsides are that Condition 1 carry is impossible, and there is a risk of leaving the safety on.

*FOOTNOTES:

A handful of DA/SA pistols have safeties that disable the trigger in DA mode, but drop the hammer without firing if the trigger is pulled with the hammer cocked and the safety engaged. This mode of operation is quite uncommon; AFAIK the only centerfire pistol that works this way and is currently being sold on the US market by a major gunmaker is the Walther PK380. Notable historic examples are the Mauser HSc and the Star Models 28 and 30.

A few older DA/SA pistols with decocker/safeties do not have trigger-actuated firing pin blocks and are not considered 100% drop-safe with the decocker/safety disengaged. You should always consult the manual before attempting DA/safety-off carry with a pistol that has a decocker/safety.
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Last edited by carguychris; March 19, 2013 at 09:02 AM. Reason: Forgot the footnotes; info added
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Old March 19, 2013, 09:01 AM   #29
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Quote:
For just general shooting and home defense, etc., the decocker/ safety issue makes little difference. It becomes particularly important when CARRY is considered. As for the gun dealer's claim that the decocker IS the safety..... he is more or less correct. Decocker guns depend on decocking the action, in order to "safe" it, rather than using a live safety, such as the type found on a 1911 (which is intended to be engaged with the gun cocked). All modern pistols also have other safety features, such as a firing pin block, which prevents the FP from moving unless the trigger is pulled. Certain older designs, such as 1911s, do not have this feature.
Respectfully, I strongly disagree. A decocker is not a safety. It merely decocks the hammer. The firearm can still go off when the trigger is pulled. it merely increases the length and weight of the pull required.

Now people will use that as a safety, akin to a revolver, and that is fine, but as the OP is asking this question, we should be clear, it is not an active safety.
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Old March 19, 2013, 09:18 PM   #30
hubris
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Decocker

I have a newer Cougar 8000F with a decocker safety.Thinking I completely misunderstood the mfr. info I just reread it,then unloaded and tested my pistol.Engaging the decocker immediately does the obvious,decocks the hammer and blocks the firing pin.With the decocker still engaged,the trigger is a dead pull:little resistance and no movement of the hammer.

According to the mfr. the firing pin block remains active until 1.the decocker is returned to the firing (off) position and 2.the trigger is pulled.
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Old March 19, 2013, 10:44 PM   #31
JimmyR
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I carry a CZ-75BD, and I have found that I prefer a decocker to a safety. I would rather not have a safety to manipulate if I need my weapon quickly. The double action pull is fine by me. I love my CZ, it was my first carry pistol, and I will probably be passing that thing down to my children...
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Old March 20, 2013, 11:07 AM   #32
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The decocker design is only a safe way to decock the firearm, by using a hammer block or by moving the firing pin so that it is not contacted by the hammer.

Once the hammer is down, the decocker has done its job.

HOWEVER, firearms with a decocker generally have a firing pin safety, so the hammer can not bounce on the firing pin and fire the round in the chamber. Unless the trigger is pulled [which deactivates the firing pin safety], the firing pin can't move.

So, most guns with a decocker are safe to carry with the hammer down on a live round, and the decocker is safer to use to lower the hammer than just pulling the trigger and holding the hammer to guide it down.
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Old March 20, 2013, 12:52 PM   #33
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A person can disagree all they want, but it really depends on the firearm in question. On my Beretta the safety de-cocks the hammer and when I use that feature it not only drops the hammer, but prevents the pistol from being fired at all, unless I put the de-cocker back in the "fire" position.

Rotate the lever down, hammer drops and pistol is incapable of firing. Pulling the trigger does nothing, and the firing pin disconnect is engaged. Rotate lever back up and I'm back in DA/SA business.

I much prefer this system to one I have to manually de-cock. Less user error potential. Remove finger from trigger, rotate lever, done. I never have to touch the trigger, or hammer, and don't need to do any finger gymnastics in the process.
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Old March 20, 2013, 02:08 PM   #34
carguychris
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Quote:
On my Beretta the safety de-cocks the hammer and when I use that feature it not only drops the hammer, but prevents the pistol from being fired at all, unless I put the de-cocker back in the "fire" position.
Your Beretta has a decocker/safety, as previously described by myself and several others.
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Old March 20, 2013, 02:38 PM   #35
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yes its the best of both worlds. You can either be DA only or DA with active safety.
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Old March 20, 2013, 03:34 PM   #36
carguychris
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[With a decocker/safety,] You can either be DA only or DA with active safety.
You just can't carry in Condition 1 aka "Cocked & Locked".
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Old March 20, 2013, 03:37 PM   #37
zincwarrior
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Sadly no.
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Old March 20, 2013, 04:01 PM   #38
Viper99
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My preference is the DA/SA decocker. Just like my Sig P239
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Old March 20, 2013, 05:16 PM   #39
jmstr
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Viper99: I like that aspect of my Sig P225 also. My Ruger P97DC is the same way, but is slide mounted.

Tgreening: the Mag Research Baby Eagle I just sold [darned kids: needed money] had a slide-mounted safety/decocker as you describe. Leave it down and the safety is on, where it pulls the firing pin away from the hammer. Flip the safety up and you are ready to fire. Hammer back after 5 shots and you rotate the safety lever down to decock the handgun, and leave it safe.

By the way, the Walther P38/P1 has the same type of slide mounted safety design. That and the barrel locking block seem to have been borrowed by the Beretta.

However, as was stated: these [Beretta 92/96, Walther P1/P38, Baby Eagle] are not decockers. They are decocker/safetys.

The Sig is a straight decocker only [on most of their p-series, but not all], and the Ruger P97dc is a decocker only. The firing pin block is what keeps the gun from discharging if dropped with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Pull the trigger, FPB is bypassed and it will fire.
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Old March 20, 2013, 05:45 PM   #40
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I do not like any guns that require you to lower the hammer manually on a live round. My first gun was a Sig P228 which has a decock on it. I also had an H&K USP which had a decock but no safety. My idea of a safety is a device which prevents the firing of gun when you pull the trigger. A decocker does not do this. It simply changes the trigger pull to double action from single action. Some guns drop the hammer when the gun is put on safety like the Beretta 92. This is a safety since you cannot pull the trigger and fire the gun. Semantics aside, it doesnt really matter if this is just a range gun since you will usually only load it while on the line and leave it unloaded when you are done with it. If you leave a loaded mag in it but leave it unchambered, then it doesn't matter.
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Old April 9, 2013, 08:28 AM   #41
Buckdown
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I cant stand external safetys. A concept that is just plain stupid for a pistol.Decockers any day and all day long
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Old April 9, 2013, 09:01 AM   #42
Dashunde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
I am not interested in concealed carry, and more interested in safe handling and shooting at the range.
I'd definitely select a single action with a safety for range use because it can be loaded up, safety flipped on, then set down in a truly safe condition, or you can stop in the middle of the magazine if need be - It simply will not fire until the safety is flipped off.
I think a manual safety on a range pistol mixes well with that use and environment.

A decocker can/will fire if the trigger is pulled. An example might be trying to catch the gun if its dropped or knocked off of the bench. Or some fool with bad manners picks it up. Etc,etc..
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Old April 9, 2013, 09:51 AM   #43
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The real best of both worlds gun is the PT92. Safety in the right place, works in the right direction, push down for decock.

I think the ideal self defense design is the Smith SDXVE series, no levers to worry about and not to touchy on the trigger.
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Old April 10, 2013, 09:24 AM   #44
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No device makes your gun "safe". A manual safety can fail, and you should not rely on it. This is part of the NRA Basic Pistol training. If your finger is on the trigger, even with the safety on, you are still breaking one of the rules of gun safety. The safety doesn't change the rules.

Gun safety comes from you. Choose the configuration that you like best and shoot best, but don't think you are getting safety out of mechanical device, because you aren't.
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Old April 10, 2013, 04:05 PM   #45
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Some folks on this thread are inaccurately describing safeties found on pistols like the Beretta and S&W 3rd gen. They are accurately described as Hammer Drop Safeties. Because they have the ability to decock the hammer, does not make them decockers. The safety must be manually returned to the fire position, whereas a true decocker returns automatically to the fire position once it's released.
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Old April 10, 2013, 05:31 PM   #46
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Lets quantify this a bit:

Yes... in the CZ USA line you do get more options with decockers - particulary the lightweight versions. Other than the P07, CZ-USA REFUSES to import a lightweight properly equipped pistol. They have ALL been castrated. (In the P07 you get to switch).

Decockers and running DA/SA is inferior in every aspect of shooting in any scenario with some level of training. No one shoots a better first shot when it is in a long harder DA pull.

This argument in terms of the CZ is about design and function. Of all the hammer fired production weapons out there, the CZ 75 series is the BEST in using a 2 handed high grip - which happens to be the most effective method of shooting - period. Was it designed for this? I doubt it, but it IS great at it. You grip it with right thumb ABOVE the safety, and left thumb along the slide ahead of the rear of the slide release. It is SO natural on the production CZ it is amazing. This is a REAL advantage in pistol shooting, and why competitors like the CZ 75 series. Then add an improved beavertail like the 07 and 01 models, and you have a GREAT hammer fired, lightweight pistol! You go from great to better!

Shooting like this, it even makes it easier to train to flick the safety off, because once you do, your hands are IN the firing position. Now, every shot is the same - no repositioning of the trigger finger (critically important), and you are better. This is an objective truth, not just another opinion. To take that away from one of the best high thumbs pistol made anywhere is a WASTE. That is why I hate decockers on a CZ - they take a great pistol and make it merely good. The SIG was built around a decocker for any number of reasons, and it's decocker is a bit easier to use the way it was designed. BTW - the CZ decocker is an afterthought. It actually gets IN the way of the right thumb - yes, you can work around it, but again, its not as good and comfortable as the safety. I also owned a P01 where the decocker was NOT smooth in operation, and you don't get much leverage on it like the SIG. It adds tiny unnecessary parts, and thus makes the trigger assembly MUCH harder to work on. So... if you want to smooth the DA trigger yourself (and try to make good on DA/SA), its that much harder. Then add that you can safely train to decock without it, and you see the nonsense it is - particularly on the CZ 75 series of firearms.

Yes, I LOATH decockers on a CZ for good reason. Again - no offense to those who have spent time training around it.
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