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Old April 7, 2013, 07:31 PM   #1
flyguy958
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Case Thinning (Too Much?)

How much case thinning at the head is too much? I've cut 3 cases in half that I can "feel" a groove with a paper clip. I can feel a difference in each. The worst is at the top and is also the one that separated.
Load data:30/06, CCI Primer, IMR 4350-56.5gr, 150 Barnes TXS, 3.280" OAL.
These have been full length sized twice and neck sized three times for a total of 5 reloads.

Thinning.jpg

Case.jpg

Winchester.jpg

So my question is if you can feel any thinning is that too much?
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Old April 8, 2013, 11:03 AM   #2
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Five reloads is pretty fast. Though, you are pushing a full case, I would expect more
Life with necksizing than you have seen…To answer your question, Yes I stop when
I feel the thinning/Separation starting. I assume your head space is OK? And, You are not using 4350 in a gas gun are you?
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Old April 8, 2013, 12:02 PM   #3
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Bad habits, starts with “Do like the bench resters do, they full length size etc., etc..”,

With total disregard for methods and or techniques available to the reloader they continue to full length size, it is possible to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder back to the bolt face, it is possible to determine the length of of a fired case from the shoulder of the case back to the head of the case, problem, fire forming is considered a profession, a reloader chambers a 30/06 round, fires the case, then suddenly/instantly become a fire former. Back to methods and techniques, a reloader can measure the length of a fired case from the shoulder/datum back to the head of the case to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face, (Problem: Memory work, as in repeat after me: Head space is etc., etc..). If I fire a case to determine the length of the chamber I measure the length of the case from the shoulder back to the head of the case, to determine the effect the chamber will have on the case when I fire it I measure the length of the chamber first (again, from the shoulder of the chamber back to the bolt face).

Minimum length???? I have surplus ammo as in military ammo that has never been fired that date back to 1903, I have unfired ammo from the 30s, I have unfired ammo that date from 1941 to 1945, I know the effect the chamber will have on the case before firing, I know the length of the chamber before I fire a minimum length unfired round in it. Head space does not drive me into the curb or lock me up, again, there is a chamber length, there is a case length, one from the shoulder of the case back to the head of the case, the other from the shoulder of the chamber back to the bolt face.

Again, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel, I off set case travel with the length of the case, then there is the one track mind, from the beginning there have been different designs of receiver configurations, a good question starts with describing the make and model of rifle, again, a friend fired cases for forming, he had 4 case head separations with the first 10 rounds fired, the deductive reasoning he used was ‘I was wrong’, I suggested I could have told him it would not work before he left the shop, I suggested I could have met him at the range and corrected the problem before he began forming, I suggested I could have formed cases for his chamber before he loaded his ‘fire to form’ cases.

All of my presses have threads, all of my dies have threads, then there are cases that have been fired in trashy old chambers, and, forming dies, I do not have less than 15 forming dies. there is something beyond ‘HEAD SPACE’, beyond head space is the length of the chamber, I determine the length of the chamber at least three different ways, again, with out a head space gage because head space gages cover 3 different length for the 30/06. +.005 beyond minimum length, .009” beyond minimum length and .014” beyond minimum length, and I think that is nice, only nice because I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths, I have 14 options between minimum length and field reject length.

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Old April 8, 2013, 02:02 PM   #4
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F.Guffy, For my interest alone, Are you saying that I am wrong. Or just that I did not go deep enough. With this question, I am assuming the OP is kinda new.
I understand that head space is not an issue as long as YOU know what you have and account for it..
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Old April 8, 2013, 05:06 PM   #5
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Not new, been doing this a while but with a lot to learn. This is a Winchester model 670 bolt gun. I was surprised at the difference in thinning of the cases. Out of 15 cases that have all been through the same loads, 8 have thinning I can feel the rest don't. Just wondered what other find.
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Old April 9, 2013, 09:27 AM   #6
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Unread Yesterday, 07:31 PM #1
flyguy958
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How much case thinning at the head is too much? I've cut 3 cases in half that I can "feel" a groove with a paper clip. I can feel a difference in each. The worst is at the top and is also the one that separated.
Load data:30/06, CCI Primer, IMR 4350-56.5gr, 150 Barnes TXS, 3.280" OAL.
These have been full length sized twice and neck sized three times for a total of 5 reloads.


Unread Today, 02:02 PM #4
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Posts: 593 F.Guffy, For my interest alone, Are you saying that I am wrong. Or just that I did not go deep enough. With this question, I am assuming the OP is kind of new.
I understand that head space is not an issue as long as YOU know what you have and account for it..
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Tater, forgive, I did not critique your response, The OP neck full length after 2 firings and neck sized after 3 firings sized, is there is nothing between neck sizing and full length sizing? The Internet is full of it, fire to form then neck size 5 times after each firing ‘THEN!!!!’ full length size to restore the case to minimum length. and again I ask “HOW is that possible to restore the case and start over? The case has been fired 7 times, the OP has reloaded his cases 5 times with the beginning of case head separation, his cases have been fired 6 times. One more time, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel. I off set case travel with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case and head of the case.

And, we do not know what rifle he is using, standards, I am the fan of standards, I do not apply the same standards to all receivers. There is a long boring story that starts with the firing pin strikes the primer, then the case, powder and bullet runs to the front of the chamber etc., on and on etc.. again, that story does not apply to all receivers, then there is Hatcher, someone handed him the wrong rifle, they did not hand him the 03 Springfield he thought they handed him. Hatcher assumed all receivers behaved alike, all Hatcher that would have been necessary to understand why his experiment did not work was to mark/scribe the case before firing, had he marked/scribed the case he would have found he was wrong, not for all Springfields, he was wrong about the rifles he was testing. The shoulder was moved forward .080”, we all know that a case will not stretch .080” between the case body and case head, Hatcher assumed that is what would happen, instead his shoulder was erased and became part of the case body and part of the neck became part of the shoulder, again, had he scribed the case body/shoulder juncture before firing he would have been able to ‘figure’ that out.

Add:

Unread Yesterday, 05:06 PM #5
flyguy958
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Posts: 122 Not new, been doing this a while but with a lot to learn. This is a Winchester model 670 bolt gun. I was surprised at the difference in thinning of the cases. Out of 15 cases that have all been through the same loads, 8 have thinning I can feel the rest don't. Just wondered what other find.
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“but you can't make up your own facts !” I have no clue what press and dies your are using, I do not know if you can determine if the cases are being sized when the ram is raised. I have (3) presses that are guaranteed not to flex, when using the rest of my presses I can determine if the case whipped the press or if my press had the ability to overcome the case's ability to resist sizing. Back to fire forming, then neck sizing 4 times then return the case to minimum length by full length sizing, added with the old saying a case is not fully grown until it has been fired 5 times, then when added to ‘work hardening’ while sizing and firing etc., etc.. I apply the ‘leaver policy’ I leave-er the way I found-er.

For me a good start is forming, I form cases to fit first, then fire, because I measure before and again after I compare the difference in length between the formed case and fired case, there is no excuse for a spread or difference in length. Again, I am the fan of cutting down on case travel. My favorite cases, cases that have been fired in trashy old chambers, for the 30/06 chamber my favorite case is the 280 Remington case. The 280 Remington case is a ‘can not miss’ case for off setting the length of any 30/06 chamber, I use the 280 Remington case to off set the length of a chamber that is longer between the shoulder and bolt face by .016”. When sizing 280 Remington to 30/06 I raise the die off the shell holder .014”, I do not use 5 time fired Remington cases, I am not the fan of getting into mortal combat with a case that has more resistance to sizing than the press I am using has to overcome case resistance to sizing.

Again, there is something to sizing between neck sizing and full length sizing. When sizing cases for my M1917 Eddystone with an additional chamber length of .016” I shim the die off the shell holder .014”, after sizing there can only be .002” difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder back to the bolt face and the shoulder of the case back to the head of the case, that does not leave much room for case travel. Life of the case? There is nothing about firing a case a record number of times that entertains me, because of the generous necks in most chambers annealing is necessary.

I would suggest purchasing a feeler gage for about $11.00, some get expensive, depends on the purchases, some purchase expensive tools and spend the rest of their life talking about the expensive tool, I purchase tools and I use tools, Harbor Freight has feeler gages for about $6.00, Redding sells thickness gages, many years ago I said “Feeler gage” 3 times real fast and then immediately got over it.

Then there is the :No matter how well the case fits the chamber when the trigger is pulled the firing pin smack adds to head space by shortening the case.

My opinion and suggestion for a remedy: You know there is a problem, the chamber is longer than your cases when measured from the usual places, rather than size with a plan learn to avoid sizing, I avoid sizing by backing the die off the shell holder, rather than take a wild guestimate of a fractional guess of a turn converted to thousandths, use a feeler gage, with your chamber I would start with a .006” thick leaf. The .006” leaf will allow the die/press to avoid sizing the case to full length sizing.

Then there is Redding and competition shell holders, the competition shell holder adds to the deck height of the shell holder, another method/technique to avoid sizing. I choose to determine the length of the chamber first. Meqaning head space gages are nice but not necessary, for the 30/06 chamber there are 3 choices, go, no and beyond, I have 15 choices between .000 and .014”,

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Last edited by F. Guffey; April 9, 2013 at 09:30 AM. Reason: change if to of
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Old April 9, 2013, 10:00 AM   #7
Brian Pfleuger
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In all likelihood, you're pushing the shoulder back much too far when you full-length size.

The generic "instructions" that come with most die sets are worse than worthless. They tell you how to make a case that's one size into a case that's an absolute minimum size but they don't do a thing for the 99.95% of factory guns that are not that minimum size.

That fired case came out of your gun as a very close match for the guns chamber. If it was 1 time fired, it might be a couple thousandths short of a match to your guns headspace. If it's been neck sized 2 or 3 times, it should be a darn near carbon copy of your chamber.

You need to measure the headspace, which is the head to the datum (reference point) on the shoulder. The Hornady headspace gauge is a great tool but you can do it with anything that touches close to mid-point on the shoulder and is longer than the neck. For 30-06, a 3/8 or 7/16 socket might work, you'd have to try them and see. Any hardware store will sell copper bushings that will work.

Use one method or the other to measure the headspace on your fired cases. The longest cases are the closest match to your chamber. Zero your calipers on one of the longest and adjust your die so it sets the shoulder back by 1 or 2 thousandths. See if the case chamber properly. If not, bump the shoulder a tiny, tiny amount more. No more than another 0.001 and try chambering again.

Feeler gauges between the shellholder and die help with the final adjustments and make for convenient reset if you need to move the die.

Otherwise, realize that the vast majority of dies from all makers are 14 thread pitch, meaning that it takes 14 turns to move them 1 inch. That means that one turn is 1/14th inch (0.0714) and 1/4 turn is 1/56th (0.0178). You can see that a 0.001 adjustment is a tiny turn, about 1/64th, or quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a turn.
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Old April 9, 2013, 10:30 AM   #8
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“Otherwise, realize that the vast majority of dies from all makers are 14 thread pitch, meaning that it takes 14 turns to move them 1 inch. That means that one turn is 1/14th inch (0.0714) and 1/4 turn is 1/56th (0.0178). You can see that a 0.001 adjustment is a tiny turn, about 1/64th, or quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a turn”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------------

After making the tiny adjustments understand verifying is a good thing, after doing all the memory work with the incline plain and making adjustments use the feeler gage to verify the adjustment, after verifying with the feeler gage for a few months it will suddenly dawn on you it is not necessary to make the guestimates of fractions and or degree converted to thousands when verifying, I skip the guestimate, I go straight to the feeler gage and make the adjustment, the feeler gage is a standard, the feeler gage is transfer, the feeler gage is a verifying tool.

Then there are shims that are added between the die and press beneath the lock ring, to add shims remove the die, again, or use the feeler gage, for $40.00 + the Redding competition shell holders are an option, I recommend a reloader get familiar with the press, nethods and techniques. Even if you purchase the Redding shell holders they come in sets. $40.00+ for each shell holder used by some reloaders could be expensive.

Again, I was at the Mesquite Big Town gun show when I found a dealer that had a #6 set for $5.00, I could not pass up that deal, I measured the deck height of all 5, 3 of them were off by .001” each, not a problem for me, I could correct each one of them with a feeler gage, that would be +/- .001” as in decreasing the deck height or increasing the deck height. With the feeler gage I have 11 options instead of 5.

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Old April 9, 2013, 07:58 PM   #9
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This is wisdom and it is so scarce in today’s world:


Quote:
In all likelihood, you're pushing the shoulder back much too far when you full-length size.

The generic "instructions" that come with most die sets are worse than worthless. They tell you how to make a case that's one size into a case that's an absolute minimum size but they don't do a thing for the 99.95% of factory guns that are not that minimum size.
These ledges are the difference between Go (bottom ledge) and No Go (top ledge). That is not much and you won’t get inbetween there by following the die instructions of letting the die touch the shellholder plus a quarter turn. Unless you are lucky. Sometimes luck happens.



This is what you need to properly set up your dies, a gage:

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Old April 10, 2013, 06:47 AM   #10
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Unread Yesterday, 07:58 PM #9
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Quote:
In all likelihood, you're pushing the shoulder back much too far when you full-length size.

The generic "instructions" that come with most die sets are worse than worthless. They tell you how to make a case that's one size into a case that's an absolute minimum size but they don't do a thing for the 99.95% of factory guns that are not that minimum size.

These ledges are the difference between Go (bottom ledge) and No Go (top ledge). That is not much and you won’t get in-between there by following the die instructions of letting the die touch the shell holder plus a quarter turn. Unless you are lucky. Sometimes luck happens.




The L.E. Wilson case gage comes with with instructions, instructions can be passed out, not easy to force someone to read the instructions then there is the problem of assuming those that can read can comprehend what they are reading. Recently, the Wilson case gage has been referred to as being a drop-in gage, then there are those that have passed the Wilson case gage off as a gage that is used with the fingernail. POINT?: The Wilson case gage comes with instructions, “This is wisdom and it is so scarce in today’s world:” The Wilson case gage instructions recommend using a straight edge, then the instructions go on to suggest a steel pocket rule.

The pocket rule is to be used across the top of the case head, when working with fired cases the case will (most likely) protrude from the top of the gage, when using the steel rule there will be a gap, between the steel rule and top of the gage, this gives the reloader another opportunity to take a wild guestimate when measuring the amount of light that can be seen between the rule and gage. Option, the feeler gage, the reloader can measure the gap between the straight edge and top of the gage, in thousandths, with the feeler gage.

Then there always the “What now?” A reloader with a straight edge and feeler gage can measure the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the head of the case in thousandths. “Now What?” , number one answer”

“These ledges are the difference between Go (bottom ledge) and No Go (top ledge). That is not much and you won’t get in-between there by following the die instructions of letting the die touch the shell holder plus a quarter turn. Unless you are lucky. Sometimes luck happens” in my opinion, the feeler gage is a standard, it is a transfer, I have no clue why someone would get attempt getting in-between the steps of the Wilson case gage, back to rare wisdom in today’s reloading on the internet. We are measuring a fired case in the Wilson case gage, if the case protrudes and the user of the gage understands datums, straight away, the reloader must recognize the case must not be resized to minimum length, minimum length? The owner of the Wilson case gage must understand it is most important the case be measured in the gage before firing, if the case is not measured before firing the reloader has nothing to compare the fired case to. The difference between the two readings indicate the effect the chamber had on the case when it was fired.

Back to “Now What?'”, if the proud owner of the Wilson case gage read and understood the instructions and developed skill and understanding of the feeler gage the reloader could transfer the reading/measurement in thousandths from the Wilson case gage to the ‘die off the shell holder’ measurement.

“This is wisdom and it is so scarce in today’s world:”

Monkey see, monkey do, pictures of the Wilson case gage is always presented with the case head up, why? I do not know, but for me there is no upside down, I use a set-up table/flat surface, I stand the case up then lower the the gage into the case. When measuring fired cases I expect the case to protrude, it matters not the case protrudes, it is the “by how much” I am interested in, and, again, I want to know in thousandths. I measure the gap between the flat surface and bottom of the Wilson case gage. Once I have the measurement to the press by adjusting the die to and or off the shell holder, with an exception, sizing a once fired case is not the came as sizing a 6 time fired case,

Gage up and or gage down, careful when taking the Wilson case gage seriously, when standing the Wilson case gage up of a flat surface the case neck can not protrude meaning the table will be supporting the case off the shoulder/datum of the gage, and always remember, the Wilson case gage measures the length of the case from the datum back to the head of the case and from the datum/shoulder to the mouth of the case. When the length of the gage is measured is will match maximum case length listed in reloading manuals.


Back to that wisdom thing, “This is wisdom and it is so scarce in today’s world:” it is not necessary to count but there is a reoccurring suggestion that we all should do as the bench rester does and full length size every time.

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Old April 10, 2013, 08:41 AM   #11
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Quote
"In all likelihood, you're pushing the shoulder back much too far when you full-length size".

+1
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Old April 10, 2013, 09:06 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Guffey
Back to that wisdom thing, “This is wisdom and it is so scarce in today’s world:” it is not necessary to count but there is a reoccurring suggestion that we all should do as the bench rester does and full length size every time.
I, for one, don't say that. I say "properly sized". Unsized, or rather neck-sized, is also proper. But if sized, there is proper and improper.

I do think that wringing out the last bit of accuracy would require properly full-length sized cases but most of us can't shoot well enough to see it anyway and probably don't need it if we can. I have yet to see a gun that won't shoot under 1" at 100 with Lee collet neck dies.
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Old April 10, 2013, 01:27 PM   #13
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“I, for one, don't say that. I say "properly sized". Unsized, or rather neck-sized, is also proper. But if sized, there is proper and improper”
_________________________________________________________________
And I said (or asked) Is there nothing between neck sized and full length sized? It does not seem fair, all my presses have threads, all my dies have threads, and, to avoid confusing I suggest the reloader measure the deck height of the shell holder, my shell holder deck height is .125” for all of my shell holders is .125” expect for my $5.00 dollar competition set from Redding, for everything else I have the feeler gage for making corrections that are beyond the limits of the standard die and shell holder.

Unread April 7, 2013, 07:31 PM #1
flyguy958
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How much case thinning at the head is too much? I've cut 3 cases in half that I can "feel" a groove with a paper clip. I can feel a difference in each. The worst is at the top and is also the one that separated.
Load data:30/06, CCI Primer, IMR 4350-56.5gr, 150 Barnes TXS, 3.280" OAL.
These have been full length sized twice and neck sized three times for a total of 5 reloads.

So my question is if you can feel any thinning is that too much?
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The OP has experience with the press, he has neck sized, he has full length sized, again, is there anything between neck size and full length sized? Without hesitation I say YES! I have neck sizer dies, a lot of neck sizer dies, I do not use them, between neck sizing and full length sizing I have at least 10 good options, I can adjust the die off the shell holder .001”, I can adjust the die off the shell holder .002”, after that I can continue raising the die to increase the gap between the die and shell holder until I get a gap of .010”, again, I have one chamber that requires a gap of .014”.

“So my question is if you can feel any thinning is that too much?” and the answer is ‘YES’, the question is about preventing the beginning of case head separation, I form long cases, I purchase that have been fired in trashy old chambers, I use 280 Remington cases when determining the length of a chamber that uses the 30/06 as a parent case. I neck up cases then size them back by sizing them in different length from the shoulder back to the head of the case. I do not have a proper way to size, I size cases to fit the chamber, if after firing a case in a chamber and the case forms to the chamber I apply the leaver policy, meaning once the shoulder is formed to the chamber I leaver formed with an exception, I do not neck size, I adjust the die off the shell holder to prevent the die from full length sizing or put another way I avoid restoring the case to minimum length.

Again, I do not know what receiver he is using, some designs are rough on the case during the first firing, others are not. Again, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case.

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Old April 10, 2013, 01:58 PM   #14
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I believe you're making a distinction that does not exist.

Whether I run a case 100% fully into a full length die, or in my case Redding body die, or just 99.95%, which will make it match my chamber, the case is "full length resized".

It's much easier to explain the process as full length sizing that is properly measured for your chamber than it is to start esoteric distinctions between 100% fully, really and truly "full" length resizing and the 2 or 3 or 4 thousandths less sizing that makes it fit your gun.

If I run a case into my Redding body die, I consider that case "full-length" resized, the die touching the shellholder or 4 thousandths above it is a matter of "proper" sizing versus improper, not a difference of "full length sizing" versus some unnamed other thing.
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Old April 10, 2013, 07:47 PM   #15
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Interesting replies. I'm learning as I read. So the consensus would be I have a loose chamber and bump the shoulder too far back when I full length sized.

Also that if I can feel any deviation in the wall it is too much.

Guess I need to start checking a little closer for wall thickness and shoulder bump.
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Old April 11, 2013, 08:52 AM   #16
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Unread Yesterday, 07:47 PM #15
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Posts: 123 Interesting replies. I'm learning as I read. So the consensus would be I have a loose chamber and bump the shoulder too far back when I full length sized.

Also that if I can feel any deviation in the wall it is too much.

Guess I need to start checking a little closer for wall thickness and shoulder bump.
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Flyguy958, “So the consensus would be.....” you have a long chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the face of the bolt, unless, you have a full length sizer die that has been shortened by grinding the bottom of the die, just a few years ago that was the range, grinding the bottom of the die was never necessary, you could also have a shell holder that was caught up in the other rage a few years ago. The deck height of the shell holder should be .125”.

Loose chamber? Long chamber would be my guess. After firing and before neck sizing your case mirrored the chamber in length from the shoulder back to the bolt face, if by some means you could have measured the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case you could have determined the length of the chamber. Instead, you adjusted the die to full length size by screwing the die down to the shell holder with the proverbial 1/4” additional turn down after contact. In the process of full length sizing the reloader has the illusion the shoulder is moved back, with out considering the shoulder does not move but is erases as in part of the case body becomes part of the shoulder and part of the neck becomes part of the shoulder. Again, I do not know what receiver you have, again, some receivers can be tough on the case the first time the case is fired.

Again, bump, I suggest you avoid sizing as in limit the amount of sizing by adjusting the die not to size more than necessary. I do not know what press you are using, when sizing a case I know the length of the chamber from the shoulder back to the bolt face before firing, when sizing I adjust the die with a gap measured with a feeler gage. If I built the rifle and if I cut the chamber it is not necessary to make adjustments of the die off the shell holder, the difference between the case and chamber length will be .003” +/- very little.



Thinning of the case between the case head and case body is caused by bad habits. Then there is shoulder bump, when the shoulder of the die contacts the shoulder of the case the case is supported meaning the case body and case neck and shoulder is in contact with the die 100%. Then there is the illusion the shoulder is bumped and the assumption the shoulder is moved back. If what reloaders are doing is called bump I would call my sizing of the case wrecking, more times than not my shoulder does not move, my shoulders are erased (term described when forming). WHO KNOWS when bumping ends and forming starts?
Of the shoulder is pushed back when bumping, the case body is also bumped because the case body contacts the die FIRST! THEN! the die contacts the shoulder of the case, in that say-na-areo the shoulder is pushed up causing part of the shoulder to become part of the neck, or the shoulder locks onto the die and compresses the case, that would leave the case compressing below the case body and in front of the case head.

F. Guffey
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Old April 11, 2013, 10:07 AM   #17
F. Guffey
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If I run a case into my Redding body die, I consider that case "full-length" resized, the die touching the shell holder or 4 thousandths above it is a matter of "proper" sizing versus improper, not a difference of "full length sizing" versus some unnamed other thing.
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Sort things out, I am not Bart B. I have no motive to name “some unnamed other thing”, the chamber has a length, the case has a length, (again from the shoulders back to the bolt face and or case head), none of my chamber are adjustable (no Savages), all of the brass I have can be formed and sized. To fit my brass to my chambers I form and or size by brass cases to fit the chamber, “some unnamed other thing” I have options, because all of my presses have threads for my dies I use the threads to my advantage, I use the threads to adjust my die when sizing a case to a predetermined length from the shoulder back to the case head, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

Slamfire has posted a picture of a L.E. Wilson case gage. “some unnamed other thing”, I have purchased fired cases from firing range, my favorite cases purchased from a firing range are cases fired in trashy old chambers. When purchasing I have a choice which case I choose, the Wilson case gage is the tool of choice for sorting brass that has been fired in trashy old chambers. Long cases will protrude from the gage, I know the protruding cases will not chamber in a chamber gage and I know the case will not chamber in one of my chambers. “some unnamed other thing”, what I do know is I must size the cases to chamber, rather than mindlessly raise the ram to size a case I adjust the die off the shell holder with a gap, to save time in wild guestimates, I establish the gap with a gage for a reference then start sizing, again, I start with a gap of .006”.If after sizing the case with a gap of .006” (.00"1” over go-gage length) the case will not allow the bolt to close I decrease the gap to .004” (using another case) then repeat the process until the bolt will close.



“some unnamed other thing” I determine the length of the 30/06 chamber in the M1917 with a 280 Remington case, there is absolutely no way for the bolt of the M1917 to close on a 280 Remington case, but when determining the length of the chamber I choose to use the 280 Remington case. In the perfect world of chambers the difference in length between the perfect 30/06 chamber and perfect 280 Remington case is .046”, again from the shoulder back to the head of the case.

Others would choose to chamber a go-gage, then a no go-gage then a field reject gage ($45.00 + investment), a reloader with a working knowledge of the press, die and cases can form 14 different cases case length from minimum length to field reject gage length, back to “I have go-gages” after using a go, no or beyond gage I do not know the length of the chamber, I only know the bolt closes and or does not close on the gage, I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths, by using some unnamed other thing or procedure.

There is no rule that claims I must use formed cases for firing, the formed case becomes a tool, “some unnamed other thing” and I have no motive to name anything, there is not much of what I have posted above that was not written and published during and or before 1955, one author, knowing it was overwhelming to hit the ground when learning starting out, he listed options, also he qualified his answers by saying he could make the gages but preferred to purchase them, then he claimed a friend had good success with formed cases when chambering a barrel. It would not be fair to the author because of the opinionated, he may not be on their list favorite authors.

And I have always been a fan of the way Texas ran their rail roads, if they had a train that only had expensive tickets, they had to run another train ‘rat’ behind it with cheap/no frill tickets.

F. Guffey
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