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Old March 28, 2013, 01:55 PM   #1
Barnacle Brad
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Triple Seven - again????

I am playing with Triple Seven again - can't find any BP.

1884 Trapdoor Rifle 45-70:

Trying some 405g HB Lee bullets I have cast with 42gr (by weight) of 777 with a large rifle primer in Starline brass.

Seating the bullet to the bottom of the top driving band and slightly compressing the powder (.100 max). Not using a wad under the bullet.

Bullet alloy mixed at 16:1 - testing out at 10-11 BH.

If I can find the paper I will post group size.

Anyone else have experience with this stuff?
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Old March 28, 2013, 02:39 PM   #2
Doc Hoy
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Brad

I got what I think is leading in the barrel with that bullet.

I have reamed out my sizing die and actually thought about not sizing. Just let the barrel do the sizing.

I used about 55 of 777 with a card and cornmeal to fill the case. I got about 1100 to 1200 fps in a 29 inch barrel. I loaded light because it is the first rounds I loaded for this rifle.
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Old March 28, 2013, 04:44 PM   #3
Barnacle Brad
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Doc,
I am using the lee 459-405-hb nose pour mould for this bullet. I am not sizing this at all - just pan lubing with the house blend (50/50 wax ring and crisco with a dab of lanolin and enuf candle wax to firm it up).

I am not seeing bad lead deposits - the occasional flakes, but no strings.

I don't have a chrony so no details to share on that.

So I got a five shot group of 6.4" @ 100yds. Should I be happy with that? I will be shooting a BCPR match from 250-400yds.

If my eyes were better I think that would improve the group immensely!

They should have a legally blind category if you ask me!!!
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Old March 28, 2013, 04:47 PM   #4
Barnacle Brad
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Doc - is your 55gr 777 by weight or volume?

My volume measure is 60gr

Thanks!
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Old March 28, 2013, 05:31 PM   #5
Doc Hoy
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By Volume..

I would say the 6.4 at 100 yards is good but then I am very new to .45-70.

Mine is a trapdoor with the original barrel and I think I won't get that group until I do a little more fiddling.

I mold my own bullets too from a Lee 405.

I do size as I said and I am not certain the leading comes from too small a bullet but everything else I do is the same as for my BPC revolvers and for the Winchester clone (.45LC) I know the bullet is undersized for the lever gun and so I went to a larger sizing die for that. I have not had a chance to get into the shop and make some bullets for the lever gun and the Trapdoor yet, but I am hoping by beefing up my lube and sizing the bullet a little larger I should get the speed up and get the leading under control.
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Old March 28, 2013, 07:33 PM   #6
Barnacle Brad
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Doc, google "Larry Gibson" there is a forum thread on td loads and techniques you may be interested in reading.

I found I can stuff another 3 grains of t7 into my case without exceeding the powder compression using a drop tube. 45.4gr fills my case so that the bullet sits at the bottom of the top grease groove. The grease groove is .100 wide so the bullet is seated to the bottom of the top driving band. I am using my sizer die to taper crimp the round so the top of the case is at .482.

Variations on this theme are limited to trying: softer lead of the 20:1 flavor; magnum rifle primers and a custom bullet mould sized to my bore diameter.

The last time I tried to get along with Mr. T7, I used a 405gr flat base bullet and a .060 fiber wad, 42gr T7, large rifle primer and drop tube. Not sure of the bullet alloy as they were purchased. Long story short, 1 out of every 4 or 6 rounds squibbed. Not happy. That was in '09.

Someone at the match suggested the TD book by Spence Wolf. The world suddenly changed!

Concurrently, I am working on BP loads and getting good results. Ultimately, I need to get the m1887 bullet mould and cast the 500gr bullet and just go with the one round. Nothing that time and money will not resolve.

For the upcoming shoot I am resolved to use the T7/405 combo for the first half of the course, and BP/500gr combo for the second half. That my friends is compromise...
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Old March 29, 2013, 05:43 AM   #7
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I am going to give it a look....

But the two trapdoors I have are 22 1/2 and 29 inches (And the 29 will be shortened within six months) so I don't know that big charges will be that important to me.

Time will tell.
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Old March 29, 2013, 01:52 PM   #8
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Lee 340

Give the Lee 340 gr. bullet a try. I have had good luck with them in my Trap Door. I have been shooting a book starting load of IMR-3031. I haven't tried any BP or Subs yet. Lee says this is one of their most accurate .45 bullets.
The recoil is mild with this bullet and load.


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Old March 30, 2013, 07:34 AM   #9
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I use 777 in my Trapdoor and it works well for me. My kids love the smoke and I like the easy clean-up of the brass and rifle.

From all I've read though, 777 and compression don't mix, so watch out for that. I once tried different rates (by feel) of compressing loads in my .45 Cherokee and the groups opened up. Have not tried this in my Trapdoor yet, and just load with the .457" ball (for plinking) or .458" bullets lightly touching the powder.

Tight groups.

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Old March 30, 2013, 02:29 PM   #10
Barnacle Brad
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Quote:
Ultimately, I need to get the m1887 bullet mould ...
That should be the M1881 mould (Saeco) or M81 (Rapine)
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Old March 31, 2013, 11:45 AM   #11
Barnacle Brad
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Quote:
From all I've read though, 777 and compression don't mix, so watch out for that.
The way I read it is that light compression not to exceed .100 is recommended...However "Do not heavily compress powder charges" is correct....

Quote:
HODGDON LOADING NOTES:
Triple Seven In Cartridges: Use data specifically developed for Triple Seven FFG only. Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this pamphlet. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property. Do not create loads for cartridges not listed. Contact Hodgdon Powder Company for recommendations concerning other loads. *See WARNINGS below.
Quote:
HODGDON LOADING NOTES:
WARNING: Never allow an air space in any cartridge loaded with Pyrodex (THIS SHOULD INCLUDE TRIPLE SEVEN - BRAD). The loading density must be 100% by light compression. 100% loading density may be accomplished in two ways:

The case is filled with powder to a level that will provide light compression of the powder (1/16" to 1/8") when the bullet is seated.
Bottle necked cases must be loaded in this manner.

In straight walled cases, filler wads may be used to reduce the powder charge. This is done by inserting card or Polyethylene wads between the base of the bullet and the powder. Wads should be sized to the internal diameter of the cartridge case. The loader must be careful to insure that there are no void spaces in the assembled cartridge. NEVER use any other type of filler material. Be careful as loads are reduced. At some point, the bullet will fail to exit the bore.

When loading cartridges with Pyrodex or Triple Seven, you may use a powder measure designed for smokeless powders. Learn more.
http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html
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Old April 7, 2013, 05:06 PM   #12
Barnacle Brad
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Bizzaro World...

Well first things first. The extra powder i stuffed in the case last time did nothing to improve the bullet grouping. So it looks like the 42 grains is the ticket for me.

What is bizarre to me is that I have just measured out 70 grains of 1 1/2f Swiss BP and oddly enough it weighs 77.7 grains. So i guess in the end, it really is Triple Seven again!!!
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Old April 7, 2013, 06:38 PM   #13
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B.Brad-- Triple Seven, I like the stuff. I target shoot 55 grains in my .50 Jonathon Browning Hawkin and 25 grains in my Colt Walker. Works fine.

Of course, I use Goex (50 grains) in my .45 flintlock.

Triple Seven is far less dirty in a clean up contest between the .50 JBMR and the .45 Flintlock.

.02

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