The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 25, 2013, 09:41 PM   #26
Gunnutfn49
Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2013
Location: PR of Kalifornia
Posts: 77
I want to see someone run a three gun match with one of those pink "rascal" peep sight 22's.
__________________
"...and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."-Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan

...What he meant to add was, "unless, of course, all responsible citizens are armed to the teeth."
Gunnutfn49 is offline  
Old March 26, 2013, 10:53 AM   #27
eodinert
Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Posts: 44
Just a few thoughts;

First, 5.45 is not too small for 3 gun. It's perfect, whether you're shooting it out of an AK, or an AR. I've run 5.45 AKs in 3 gun several times, and it's a hoot. Magazines will be a little rough right now.

Second, you're not going to find a rifle worth owning for less than an AR-15. It is the most saturated, best supported market in tactical rifles in history. Shop the used market, buy components, put together your own... especially if you buy unfashionable parts (carry handle uppers, for example). Watch the classifieds like a hawk, get on some 'email me when back in stock' lists, and be patient. I think you could easily put together a rifle for $700 or less right now.
eodinert is offline  
Old March 27, 2013, 11:51 PM   #28
Justice06RR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2010
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,269
Quote:
I think you could easily put together a rifle for $700 or less right now
If you are talking about an AR15 for less than $700 right now I highly doubt that.

Your main problem would be finding a good BCG at a decent price. And what is the cheapest lower (stripped or complete) that you can find that is not polymer?

Sure you can take your chance with a Rguns BCG for $115, but I wouldn't. Stripped Lowers are still around $200+/- with the cheapest around $120-150 for a PSA... thats if you can get them in stock.

My suggestion is looking at a M&P15 Sport for $839. For a starter AR that is hard to beat. Some DPMS AR's have also shown up in my LGS for less than $800 but that is low-end IMO.
Justice06RR is offline  
Old March 28, 2013, 05:31 AM   #29
jason41987
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Posts: 479
dakota, im in the same situation as you are looking for a new rifle, im willing to drop a decent amount of money on something really nice. something that is in my opinion perfect... what that is i havent completely decided, but i dont want an AR15 either, never really liked the design, already have AK, SKS, already have an FAL on my shopping list for the .30 caliber category (though someone could still theoretically convince me towards a 30 caliber XCR)... but for the specific set of features im looking for, so far all ive found is the AUG/MSAR, and a rifle made by CZ that isnt even on the market yet
jason41987 is offline  
Old March 28, 2013, 05:31 AM   #30
eodinert
Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Posts: 44
I still think it's very possible... it would just take some effort. Just in the few minutes I was looking right now, I found a complete upper half, including BCG, for $600 (bushmaster) http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_159/1...MEGA_Rail.html
This one people are avoiding because it was spray painted. I realize that this is not quite at the '$700 gun' price point, but it's getting close... maybe the seller is motivated.

If I could find a more unfashionable upper, for example with a fixed carry handle, or a DPMS extruded upper, it could be done for less, I have no doubt. You just have to put some effort in it, and move quick.

Palmetto has some uppers back in stock from time to time, I bought a brand new upper with a hammer forged barrel for $400 a few weeks ago, but finding a BCG outside of an upper that's not overpriced would be the trick right now.
eodinert is offline  
Old March 28, 2013, 05:52 AM   #31
eodinert
Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Posts: 44
Here's a complete upper that recently sold on barfcom for $575...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_159/1...ky_______.html

Agreed about DPMS being low end... but my point is, if you're quick, there are deals out there. I just finished building a few rifle myself on the cheap, but I already had BCGs from before the crazy.

The other good thing about an AR is that you can buy half now, half later, or buy as you can afford... and sell off parts you don't like, or upgrade the quality incrementally and affordably.

An $800 M&P would definitely be a better way to go, if you could find one.

Last edited by eodinert; March 28, 2013 at 05:57 AM.
eodinert is offline  
Old March 28, 2013, 09:53 AM   #32
breakingcontact
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 736
Re: Alternatives to the AR-15

Keltec su16?

If you want an AR though, get an AR. M&P Sport is a quality less expensive model.

Check out AR15.com if you haven't.
breakingcontact is offline  
Old March 28, 2013, 03:31 PM   #33
sailskidrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2008
Posts: 726
How about a MAK90? I've used a SCAR16....
__________________
SailSkiDrive
Hk USP 45 Expert, USP 40, USP 9, SIG P226, S&W M&P9, Hk 4, Makarov, Desert Eagle 40, Beretta FS92 Centurion, Kimber TLEII 1911A1, Glock 22, SIG P225, 1943 Rem Rand 1911A1, S&W mod 64, Walther PPQ, SIG P229, Browning BDA 45 (SIG P220), Hk45, SIG P230
sailskidrive is offline  
Old March 28, 2013, 04:25 PM   #34
HJ857
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Location: haslett, mi
Posts: 349
To the OP, do you know what flavor 3 Gun you have locally? Some do not emphasize precision shooting at all and may stay within 100 yards, on the other hand some are all about precision and you may have targets well down range. I think this is a pretty important consideration when choosing your rifle platform.

Even if you're going out there just to have fun, it's way less fun if you end up spraying 90 rounds and never hit anything while everyone else got their hits in 10.

You're about to start walking the "false economy" road. 3 Gun isn't exactly cheap to do even if it's just for fun.
HJ857 is offline  
Old March 28, 2013, 04:57 PM   #35
breakingcontact
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 736
Re: Alternatives to the AR-15

How about an M1 Carbine for what....$500? 30 Cal ammo expensive? Just tossing another idea out there. I don't shoot 3 gun...too much time and too expensive.
breakingcontact is offline  
Old March 30, 2013, 09:22 AM   #36
madcratebuilder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2007
Location: Northern Orygun
Posts: 4,871
I score about the same with a M1 Carbine as I do with my AR. I like shooting the .30 cal better than the 5.56. More mag changes with the carbine, but it's a lot of fun.
madcratebuilder is offline  
Old March 30, 2013, 07:22 PM   #37
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,203
I don't know what "flavor" we have but I'm pretty sure pistol caliber carbines aren't around... I'd love to have a Carbine at some point anyways but maybe not right now
dakota.potts is offline  
Old March 31, 2013, 07:32 AM   #38
sailskidrive
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2008
Posts: 726
Quote:
How about an M1 Carbine for what....$500? 30 Cal ammo expensive? Just tossing another idea out there. I don't shoot 3 gun...too much time and too expensive.
I haven't seen a M1 Carbine for $500 in well over 10 years. The cost of ammo to feed it will quickly intersect and surpass the ownership cost of an AR.
__________________
SailSkiDrive
Hk USP 45 Expert, USP 40, USP 9, SIG P226, S&W M&P9, Hk 4, Makarov, Desert Eagle 40, Beretta FS92 Centurion, Kimber TLEII 1911A1, Glock 22, SIG P225, 1943 Rem Rand 1911A1, S&W mod 64, Walther PPQ, SIG P229, Browning BDA 45 (SIG P220), Hk45, SIG P230
sailskidrive is offline  
Old March 31, 2013, 10:12 AM   #39
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,812
Corrections Cop, we ditched the Mini-14 about 13 years ago and went with the AR-15, tower, outside work crews, etc. Heck, our outside work crew long guns used to be Winchester lever actions in 30-30! Went to the AR the same day we gave away the Ruger Security Six's and went to the Clock 17/19.
I'd go back in a heartbeat...

Options for a non-AR-15? Pardon me, gotta post this up again, then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsZEaABt1tM
__________________
http://czfirearms.us/ same original CZForum, new location.
armoredman is offline  
Old April 4, 2013, 12:00 PM   #40
MuzzleBlast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2001
Location: Arkansas. Much better place since Bill and Hillary went home.
Posts: 995
Quote:
now that obama gun grab 2013 just came to a screeching halt demand for 223 is going to go back down and soon after prices will fall back to pseudo-acceptable levels.
From your mouth to God's ears
__________________
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ArkansasShooters/

Molwn labe!
MuzzleBlast is offline  
Old September 26, 2014, 01:04 PM   #41
Ulysses S Garand
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2014
Posts: 5
Really, any surplus military style rifle will work, AK's, FALS, CETME's, etc. It all really depends on what flavor you like.

Personally, I ran a saiga in 5.56 that had been modified into a SBR (after market AK grip and stock, etc etc) but the rifle was not very modular and the aftermarket rails were largely garbage, rattling and never quite setting right.

I dislike the AR-15 platform for personal reasons (different strokes, different folks), but still wanted a highly modular rifle. I heard about a new piston driven AR weapon in the form of a Masterpiece Arms MPAR 556.

Not very pricey and built very solidly. A highly modular weapon and very similar to the piston driven military rifles of yesteryear (think FAL FNC, AK, AR-180). I picked one up for right around 700$ about a year ago and have not had any issues with it.

But still, I guess if budget is what's important, any surplus military rifle could work.
Ulysses S Garand is offline  
Old September 26, 2014, 01:51 PM   #42
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 2,975
Has anyone mentioned bullpups?

They're semi-autos, run .223/5.56, and have great features.

If I had the money and if they were on sale here, I'd seriously have looked at one. FN FS2000, Steyr Aug or Tavor.
__________________
You cannot wake someone who is pretending to sleep. Stop pretending. Wake up.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 26, 2014, 02:52 PM   #43
G.barnes
Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2011
Posts: 44
Right now you can get a complete lower, complete upper, and bcg with charging handle for less than 600 from palmetto state armory. That is for they're premium line not the ptac. I'm putting together one of their 308's from complete upper and lower for less than 1000 including shipping and ffl. I can put together a bcm for about 950. A decent ak is around 750 a arsenal ak is 1200. I happen to live in the same town as the op so I know exactly what things are going for where he's at.
G.barnes is offline  
Old September 26, 2014, 03:01 PM   #44
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,203
Since the creation of this thread I have come into possession of a DPMS A15 and a Century Vz2008

I personally would love an AUG and my highest lust semi auto is a CZ 805 with the caliber conversion kits... But we'll see how importing those goes
__________________
For firearms news and discussion from a fellow TFL member, visit shootersreportblog.wordpress.com. If you have a suggestion or would like to comment or contribute, I welcome private messages!

The Shooter's Report is also on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theshootersreport
dakota.potts is offline  
Old September 26, 2014, 03:18 PM   #45
BigBL87
Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2014
Location: Tonica, IL
Posts: 93
Holy zombie thread batman!

Anyway, now prices are such that building an AR is cheap enough there aren't much better options for your dollar. I just got a PSA AR15 for just a shade over $600 just by buying a complete upper and complete lower.
BigBL87 is offline  
Old September 26, 2014, 03:40 PM   #46
pat701
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2005
Location: Beyond OZ
Posts: 237
Sig 556.
pat701 is offline  
Old September 26, 2014, 03:55 PM   #47
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,344
It is interesting to see how much prices have dropped since the thread was first posted.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old September 26, 2014, 06:47 PM   #48
G.barnes
Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2011
Posts: 44
I didn't even realize how old this thread was at first.
G.barnes is offline  
Old September 27, 2014, 09:32 AM   #49
tirod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1,200
Panic or not, all the prices are still relevant to each other.

Quote:
I'd really like to hear some low cost alternatives that are practical,
And that means it's really about cheap ammo for practice, and having ergonomics. Which means all the controls and layout of the rifle have to cooperate with the shooter, not impede him.

There are those who have tried bolts, AK's etc, but when you look at the standings, the AR is consistently in the top places. Even in Service Rifle against .30 cal battle rifles from the previous era, they outscore them with more hits.

Why?

There are some basic motions you have to repeatedly perform with the AR to keep it in operation, and the AR helps. One is reloading - the bolt hold open keeps it back, and when loading the mag the off hand can hit the button to chamber the next round. That saves split seconds and your finger never leaves the trigger, or your eyes off the sights.

That is a minimum standard now. Any other rifle which causes you to move your head when cycling the bolt and lose the sight picture falls behind. Any rifle that forces you to load the magazine against the pressure of the closed bolt, then chamber a round with your trigger hand falls behind. That is why the AR is - practically - superior in combat and on the range. It stays in action longer and is out of action much less. That means your are on target longer and can shoot quicker.

Shooting is all about putting more rounds on target faster, especially in 3Gun, why choose any other rifle that isn't cooperative and impedes the process? Well, some do - and they say it's for the challenge, to become as proficient with their alternate rifle as they are with the AR. And after a few years, they do exhibit a high degree of ability, but they do not exceed the AR, and they go back to it.

And as for pricing, the AR is still about the least expensive self loading action on the market. Factor in it's modularity, which also enhances it's ability to be made precise without any gunsmithing fees, and you discover that is why the average $1,100 3Gun or Service match rifle can match a $1,800 accurized piston gun. There is about that much difference in price - and the $700 left over buys a lot of practice ammo, or some premium reloading equipment to further reduce costs while making the ammo even better.

One significant and specific point is that almost all the follow on designs being introduced to replace the AR incorporate most of what it is. It's not about direct impingement, either - that is just one feature. It's about the control layout, what controls they are, how the barrel is attached to the upper, that the action can be opened and the bolt carrier removed in seconds. What we are seeing is even more enhancements in modern materials and features, and aside from using a piston, they are based on the minimum standards of the AR. It is the state of the art in rifle design progress that has been going on for 400 years.

Here's a test to see how any substitute rifle will compare. Place the rifle on the table, action open (if it will,) with ten magazines (or rounds) spaced about three feet apart down it's length. Use more tables as needed. Start at the signal, load and shoot each round for time at a bullseye as you move from one end to the other laterally.

Which is faster and more accurate? I will put the AR up against them all. It helps you to shoot it more quickly and more accurately. The others simply won't. Side by side with the AR shooter he will leave you behind and out hit you. And when you swap, you will do it to him.

I've been suggesting this match for years now, and nobody reports back with their findings. Likely they already can see how it will turn out, and some fanboys don't want to admit it.

BTW, I've been shooting for 45 years, preferred the large battle rifles, and didn't care for the M16 in the day for all the usual reasons - but I had to actually use it in the service like it or not. And found out, shooting it literally one day, and my personal rifles the next, that most of what was said about it were lies.

It's really a lot better than we give it credit for.
tirod is offline  
Old September 27, 2014, 01:36 PM   #50
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,812
Quote:
Any other rifle which causes you to move your head when cycling the bolt and lose the sight picture falls behind. Any rifle that forces you to load the magazine against the pressure of the closed bolt, then chamber a round with your trigger hand falls behind.
Do you mean releasing the bolt, or cycling it? Releasing it, sure, but doesn't the standard AR bolt use that T handle that would go straight back in your skull if you don't move your head? Sorry, I'm sure you meant releasing.

Oddly enough, I can do all of that with my SA vz-58...and because I have no worries about embarrassing myself on an international website, this is the video of doing so when I first got my extended mag release and extended bolt release. I look TERRIBLE doing this, but the theory is there, just practice makes perfect. The point is that the AR isn't the only rifle to be able to do that which you state. The AR mag release system is better, that is a very valid point, easier to replace a magazine when it drops free with the touch of a button.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz-z...wvGZuZ1Vtn7NUQ

I hated the M-16A1 when I fired it in 1984, and haven't tried one since. Just a personal thing, as I can tell they are good rifles that work exceedingly well and are respected the world over. Just like Glocks - they don't "do it" for me. I wish someone would run matches down here so I could possibly try my Czech blasters...but the last two times I walked up to what looked like a bunch of people doing a match at my local range, I was told to shove off. Oh well. Not driving two hours to shoot in a match, so no-go.
__________________
http://czfirearms.us/ same original CZForum, new location.
armoredman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14907 seconds with 9 queries