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Old March 9, 2013, 09:48 PM   #26
Nanuk
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I'd like to know your source of information, please.
I can cite personal experience. I have seen lots of miscreant shot with 357 magnums. Before the 125 was the king of the hill, the 357 was known in LE circles as quite a penetrator. For my years in the Fort Worth, Texas PD we were issued 158 grn Remington 357 magnums. Every one of the shootings I saw were completely ventilated.
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Old March 9, 2013, 10:27 PM   #27
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I can cite personal experience. I have seen lots of miscreant shot with 357 magnums. Before the 125 was the king of the hill, the 357 was known in LE circles as quite a penetrator. For my years in the Fort Worth, Texas PD we were issued 158 grn Remington 357 magnums. Every one of the shootings I saw were completely ventilated.
I appreciate the information. Have you seen any instances of another individual being struck by the bullet after it left the first body?
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Old March 9, 2013, 11:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
I'd like to know your source of information, please.
AH,

Massad Ayoob as documented the 158gr .357 magnums overpenitration in many articles.

It is a very well known fact and that is why the 125gr loads were developed.

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Old March 10, 2013, 01:25 AM   #29
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I've been kind of interested in .357 Sig since I heard about, but how close to an actual .357 mag is it shooting wise? Because I love my S&W Model 28, but I would like something a little higher capacity just so I don't have to reload every 6 rounds.
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Old March 10, 2013, 07:22 AM   #30
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Massad Ayoob as documented the 158gr .357 magnums overpenitration in many articles.

It is a very well known fact and that is why the 125gr loads were developed.
Thanks, Deaf. I have read some of his stuff over the years but not on that topic, and it's something I haven't really seen discussed at all.
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Old March 10, 2013, 05:47 PM   #31
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It seems there may be some confusion here about the 125 gr. and 158 gr. bullets used for the .357 Magnum and the loads used for the 357Sig.

The .357 Magnum earned a very good reputation as a hunting round and a law enforcement round from the earliest years of it's development in the 1930s. In general 158 gr. bullets were used, sometimes a bit heaver or lighter. Cast lead bullets were often used and several companies offered semi jacketed soft nosed bullets for various purposes.

In the 1970 a small company was opened by a fellow called Lee Jurras. The company was Super Vel. Jurras had the idea that if you shot a light weight bullet at higher velocities and you built the JHP bullet right that you could get reliable expansion more times than not. The expansion would be better and more reliable than cast lead bullets. So he developed a line of 110 gr. and 125 gr. bullets for the .357 that allowed for about 1400 fps from a 4" barrel.

These bullets made the reputation of the 125 gr. JHP load from the .357 Magnum. They worked well and other companies followed suit. They also, if they expanded, decreased the likely hood of over penetration.

In the years in between bullets have been developed that reliably expand at lesser velocities and use 148 and 158 gr. bullets. So these days the depth of penetration is not dependent on bullet weight or velocity but on bullet construction. This is in line with law enforcement standards of 12-14 or 16" of penetration and expansion for use against personnel.

Also a good part of the .357Sigs reputation is built on the idea that it will out penetrate the 9mm or the 45acp through some barriers. This is due in part to it's higher velocity.

Folks can look up Super Vel and Lee Jurras on the web.

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Old March 10, 2013, 08:02 PM   #32
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357sig is not going anywhere, it's here to stay.
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Old March 10, 2013, 09:05 PM   #33
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Much like the 10mm and the .41 Mag (both of which I own, for the record) the .357 sig will probably be around for a while.

But...there is a difference between "hanging around" and "thriving". I don't see any of those three thriving or growing significantly in popularity. The difference is that the 10mm and the .41 Mag (ammo and firearm sales) are supported strictly by hand loaders and enthusiasts.

The .357 Sig has various LEA use. When/if they move on to "the next big thing"...I'm not sure that there are a lot of enthusiasts. Some, yes, but I only know two guys who shoot .357 Sig. One is a hand loader, one has owned his for at least five years and I have seen him take it out once.

If you have a set of dies and some cases, you will be able to get projectiles, primers and powder, and you will be self-sufficient...just like we 10mm/.41 mag guys are.

Quote:
Don't assume just because a law enforcement agency carry a gun for a living means they are experts.
Bingo. The government, at every level, has a long history of making decisions made on ego, kickback, or low bidder. The people who make the decisions are administrators, not field/street operators. This applies at every level from fire hydrants to F35s.
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Old March 11, 2013, 07:14 PM   #34
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I appreciate the information. Have you seen any instances of another individual being struck by the bullet after it left the first body?
No, this is where tactics and training come in. There are several people I did not shoot, that I was justified in shooting, because there were many people milling around behind and around the BG's. The one OP hit I saw was a contact distance shot from a 12 gauge in a melee situation.
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Old March 12, 2013, 11:45 PM   #35
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but has anyone confirmed for sure that the Air Marshalls ARE using the .357 Sig, or is it just hearsay?
If so, what load are they using?

A 90gr bullet designed for .380 velocities, for instance, might tend to UNDERpenetrate when pushed at .357 Sig velocities...
...or it may just penetrate 10" or so with a ton of authority. Probably not gonna over penetrate. The "laws of physics" argument only has merit if one considers ALL the variables, including bullet weight, design, and expansion at impact velocities.
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Old March 13, 2013, 11:27 AM   #36
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but has anyone confirmed for sure that the Air Marshalls ARE using the .357 Sig, or is it just hearsay?
If so, what load are they using?

Yes, they use 125 Speer Gold Dots if I recall correctly.
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Old March 13, 2013, 03:29 PM   #37
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Its not going anywhere

.357 Sig is in use in many law enforcment applications around the country. It achieves very nice balistics in the same size package. In both of my Glocks it is more accurate than the .40 s&w barrels that the guns came with.

I basically believe that as long as sig and gap are in use in LE they aren't going anywhere.

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Old March 14, 2013, 12:03 AM   #38
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Thank you Nanuk.

I'll agree now that, yes, there are better choices for use on a crowded airliner, HOWEVER, I will now go research some gel tests of the Sig vs 9mm, both in 124gr GDHP confifuration.and see what really happens, penetration wise.
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Old March 14, 2013, 09:14 PM   #39
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There is more to shooting safely in a crowded airliner (well as if there is ANY 'safe' way to shoot in a crowded airliner) that just the cartridge.

Some guns are easier to hit with. Some don't recoil as much. Some are more accurate shooting slow fire while others more accurate shooting at speed.

Notice the Air Marshals uses the Sig pistol (a very accurate, reliable, and easy to shoot handgun) in .357 Sig. They looked at the whole package not just the round.

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Old March 14, 2013, 10:15 PM   #40
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A lot of that comes down to individual tastes. If they are only issuing one model, then they missed the most important part of the shootability package: the shooter. Personally, for instance, I do not care for the feel or pointability of Sig's very high quality products. Ditto the old SA/DA Smiths. I can learn 'em, but they are not instinctive...
...but give me a P-35, or the XD whose grip frame was inspired by it, and I can make it sing.
So, now that we've left out the shooter, we can get down to picking a cartridge. For use in a crowd, and always indoors, and possibly in the dark, I cannot imagine a worse choice than a .357, whether magnum OR Sig. Throwing out overpenetration, which could happen with any cartridge in a crowd, you still have blast & flash which are substantial with the Sig round.
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Old March 16, 2013, 01:18 AM   #41
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No I don't think the 357 Sig is going anywhere for a while anyway. I have a Glock 33 and love the accuracy I get out of it. That being said I would still like to find a 40 Cal (Glock27) barrel for it. Anyone know who sells the G-27 barrel at a reasonable price. I think $175.00 is too much for a Glock replacement barrel. I am not talking "Lone Wolf" or any of the others I want just a stock Glock barrel.
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Old March 16, 2013, 12:10 PM   #42
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I want just a stock Glock barrel.
You can always try here...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40


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Old March 16, 2013, 06:36 PM   #43
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Would Glock not sell such a thing?
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Old March 31, 2013, 02:36 PM   #44
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The government, at every level, has a long history of making decisions made on ego, kickback, or low bidder. The people who make the decisions are administrators, not field/street operators. This applies at every level from fire hydrants to F35s.
Maybe so in these instances but I doubt very much that selecting a cartridge to be chambered in an issued pistol has anything to do with kickbacks, low bids or ego.
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Old March 31, 2013, 02:48 PM   #45
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When the AM started up again a bunch of guys came over from SS and they were already carrying the 357 Sig and stuck with it.
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Old April 3, 2013, 09:02 PM   #46
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.357 SIG is what I carry. And no, they will not stop producing it any time soon given how many LEOs carry it these days.

It's what I carry - best all around semi-auto cartridge out there these days imho, with the possible exception of 10mm. (357 SIG and 40 S&W are both off-shoots of 10mm).
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Old April 3, 2013, 09:13 PM   #47
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No I don't think the 357 Sig is going anywhere for a while anyway. I have a Glock 33 and love the accuracy I get out of it. That being said I would still like to find a 40 Cal (Glock27) barrel for it. Anyone know who sells the G-27 barrel at a reasonable price. I think $175.00 is too much for a Glock replacement barrel. I am not talking "Lone Wolf" or any of the others I want just a stock Glock barrel.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346804
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Old April 5, 2013, 09:09 PM   #48
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Sig just came out with a sub gun in 357 Sig. I bet that thing is good to 125 yds for two legged critters!
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Old April 14, 2013, 08:21 PM   #49
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I shot with an Air Marshal today('cept he used a 45 Colt

The 357 SIG is now embraced by the LE community; it may increase in popularity as cop-shops rotate through to new guns.
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Old April 18, 2013, 01:36 AM   #50
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I have two different handguns that I converted from 40 to 357sig. the 40 barrels have not been back in either. I don't find the recoil to be any more than the 40. They are louder so the perceived recoil by some shooters is greater. Guess what, I can find retail ammo how are you doing with 9, 40, and 45.
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